$21000 is what treasure cove ask for a fully refurbished MM to top spec.
Pinball info
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Who Fancies a New MM?
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
I'm not sure what you are basing this on? Updating the technology does not benefit us (the users), it is all about cost savings, not reliability. There have been countless studies now about the decline in electronic device reliability due to smaller pitch components and above all, the use of the lead free solder, which is more brittle, susceptible to cracking under vibration, and forms tin whiskers over time.
Where reliability under harsh conditions is required (Medical / military / aviation / automotive) They use a variety of extra techniques to improve reliability, least of which is they have special dispensations to use lead still in many cases, which they combine with conformal coatings, encapsulation, vibration reducing mountings etc etc
A
abaxas
Reliability is usually the inverse of complexity. The question should be not be if the design of the electronics is less reliable, the package should be viewed as a whole.
Pinball machines are hardly the most reliable of devices and the original WMS design is >25 years old.
Pinball machines are hardly the most reliable of devices and the original WMS design is >25 years old.
Whats this silver 'sodder' TNT Amusements are always banging on about, is it better than the lead free stuff?
I've never understood why americans pronounce it as 'sodder' when it has a letter L in the middle of it. But then again they can't say 'aluminium' properly either. 
But yeah, lead-free solder is ****e. It's the main reason why so many Xbox 360's and PS3's have died.
But yeah, lead-free solder is ****e. It's the main reason why so many Xbox 360's and PS3's have died.
I never said it benefits us! I said that is makes sense that they would use modern tech instead of 20 year old tech. Whether it will be better or worse remains to be seen.
Modern technology may well be used in new games, and i don't have an issue with that, however you have to remember that it is in the manufacturers interest for this not to last 10 years.
The primary concern i would have with putting that large board under the pf is the amount of black dust/soot/metal shavings etc that will end up on it - there's no point in saying that it wont, since we ALL know it happens - look at any machine (over time)... And indeed what affects this will have on these new boards.
Modern technologies are tested with this in mind. I bet ya this isn't taken into account, nor tested. what looks good on the drawings isn't always good in real life.
The primary concern i would have with putting that large board under the pf is the amount of black dust/soot/metal shavings etc that will end up on it - there's no point in saying that it wont, since we ALL know it happens - look at any machine (over time)... And indeed what affects this will have on these new boards.
Modern technologies are tested with this in mind. I bet ya this isn't taken into account, nor tested. what looks good on the drawings isn't always good in real life.
all very interesting, and makes me think that if i did decide ever to spend £6.5K on a MM, i'd be better off buying an old one rather than a new one
A
abaxas
Since when has a pinball manufacturer made a pinball that'll last 10 years?
It's business suicide, which is almost exactly what Williams did to themselves
It's business suicide, which is almost exactly what Williams did to themselves
But then again they can't say 'aluminium' properly either.
Oddly enough it seems our US friends might be correct - it was originally called and pronounced aluminum. I did not know that
Aluminum or Aluminium?
This machine has been written off by many before it's even been produced!
It may well be true that the remake might not be as well built as the Original. Inferior electronics etc. It remains to be seen at this point. But an original is now 17 years old. So if I bought a new MM and an original MM (lets face it, they are around the same price in UK) the remake's components already have the advantage of not being in use for 17 years. Which one is likely to give me the most problems? Who knows. But there are pros and cons to owning either.
Oh, and they are both fecking expensive!
It may well be true that the remake might not be as well built as the Original. Inferior electronics etc. It remains to be seen at this point. But an original is now 17 years old. So if I bought a new MM and an original MM (lets face it, they are around the same price in UK) the remake's components already have the advantage of not being in use for 17 years. Which one is likely to give me the most problems? Who knows. But there are pros and cons to owning either.
Oh, and they are both fecking expensive!
Whilst the original is probably less reliable, I'd wager it's still going to be more 'repairable'.
Indeed - Parts already exist and none are surface mount... (Has anyone tried working on Surface mount stuff?? It's a nightmare!! - and really isn't made for user servicing, that's for sure!)
See, coming here is like a history lesson. Makes you all clever and stuff.Oddly enough it seems our US friends might be correct - it was originally called and pronounced aluminum. I did not know that
Aluminum or Aluminium?
Still not sure about 'sodder' though instead of 'solder'.
So many good new pins coming out nowadays, if you buy NIB, you can sell it in a few years while the boards are still "fresh", then get another NIB.
After the sting of the initial outlay you're not going to lose a fortune moving on the next one, if you choose wisely...
After the sting of the initial outlay you're not going to lose a fortune moving on the next one, if you choose wisely...
Problem is that i'd never want to sell them!!
How can you choose wisely though? It's luck of the draw. For every Tron LE there's an Avatar LE, Transformers LE, XMen Le, Avengers Le. In fact bar Tron and BIBLE you would have trouble selling any Stern LE for close to what you paid for it
I think MMR will hold it's value, the demand is high.
But in other cases don't buy the LE if you don't want to risk losing a lot.
Wait until the games been out awhile, you'll soon find out which the good ones are.
You can get still get the AC/DC premium NIB over a year after it's release, that would be a wise choice.
But in other cases don't buy the LE if you don't want to risk losing a lot.
Wait until the games been out awhile, you'll soon find out which the good ones are.
You can get still get the AC/DC premium NIB over a year after it's release, that would be a wise choice.
And I had not even considered that in my original objection.
The black dust that you find on the back of your lamp boards and in your inserts is conductive! It is mostly made up of tiny metal particles from plunger and end stop wear. Now on a lamp board with 0.156inch clearance connectors, you would have to get a hell of a lot of that black dust built up before it causes any major problems or shorts. On these modern boards with high pitch surface mount components, some of which have 6mil clearance or less between pins/balls, it's not going to take more than a few little metal particles to short them out.
Silver solder is for jewelry and specialist UHF applications where silver has been used in the manufacturing process.
Never ever ever use silver solder in a pinball machine, it is totally unsuitable as both the components and the pcb plating will be lead based to start with, and silver solder is probably the worst choice for a high vibration environment, probably even worse than lead-free depending on how it was applied.
Both fecking expensive indeed
From my own personal experience with electronic repair ( I've repaired several hundred arcade pcb's over the years) WPC boards are actually fairly good. They are far more likely to have been damaged by battery corrosion, previous hacks/bodges by an operator, user error (such as shorting a coil to the switch matrix) or a playfield component such as a failing coil drawing too much current and causing components to fail upstream in the chain.
When a WPC board does fail from natural causes (i.e. a logic chip just gives up) they are generally very easy to deal with as the fault tends to be isolated and identifiable.
Now I am not making negative comments about the quality of reliability of these new pinball machines, it would be unfair to do so as we simply don't have any facts to go on at this point in time. I can however advise that I am absolutely 100% certain without any doubt that an original WPC boardset would be both more reliable over a long period of time and much easier to repair, based on their almost entire use of off the shelf common components and use of lead solder and DIL pitch components.
If anyone wants to splash hudge wads of cash on one of these machines, please don't let me stop you. Maybe you only intend to own it for a year or 2 and sell it on to get a different game and dont need to concern yourself with these issues.
As I have been collecting games since 1999 and have an extremely large collection of machines (75+) I know first hand about the reliability of machines over long periods of time, and I know about the importance of maintainability. I expect I will still have most of the machines I own now in another 14 years again, so I need to know that my machines (ranging from the 1960's up to the early 2000's) are repairable and have parts available. It is important to me and I just want to share some of my own experiences and knowledge to help other people make the right choice! If you think you are going to still have your MM in 14 years time like I would, then you are going to want to look at an original
PINBALL MACHINES BALLY WILLIAMS STERN ADDAMS MONSTER TWILIGHT MEDIEVAL CACTUS | eBay
First one is up, it will be interesting to see how the market reacts, £6k in the past may have swayed someone to hit the buy it now button esp as this is probably available all over Europe and there are some wealthy pin heads out there. I am assuming the whole world knows about the re-make.
First one is up, it will be interesting to see how the market reacts, £6k in the past may have swayed someone to hit the buy it now button esp as this is probably available all over Europe and there are some wealthy pin heads out there. I am assuming the whole world knows about the re-make.
Pretty confusimg ebay listing. They have used their standard container load of pinball machines listing and tagged a MM onto it. Still I guess it will sell
Bit of an assumption without seeing them in the flesh.not to mention most are probably routed to within an inch of their life's...
Not really, it more a case of who you know and who's done dealings with who in the past, particularly in certain places on the continent. There are a few pinheads out there with a lot of stories to tell about buying containers of pin unseen and the horrors that are found.
If I was advertising these I would prefer if people made contact & asked for pictures/info resulting in an accurate assessment of condition before publically making a detrimental sweeping statement about the goods available unless you have personally been stung by the guy, but that is just me.
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Ooook
LMAO, yup there are going to be people all over the world who paid an eye watering price for their MM up until the day the news broke, all gutted for sure, a friend of mine recently shifted his CC for either 7 or 7.5K, if that is next on PP's list then that will be one owner that was glad he sold (is anyway) and another who will be sick @ the news, it is definitely going to shake up the value of some machines and place a question mark against others.