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Dungeons & Dragons by Stern

Epotech said:
007, code took too long, Wick, we've basically had 1 update that counts but it does feel like a full game. . Stern are releasing games too close to each other and need to bake longer before release.
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Are they still on the same release schedule? I wonder if there’s a pinball and wallet fatigue…

I used to be able to buy and update via trading and put a few hundred in to keep up. It’s harder and harder to now really.
 
Wow, after watching a few episodes of the cartoon tonight I never realised Venger was voiced by none other than Peter Cullen (Optimus Prime)

But then again, it has been 40 years since the last time I saw it!
 
Jib said:
I think the saved progress thing is a good avenue to explore to see if it's popular, as long as they don't do it on every game. It's good to try new things and see where they lead.

Overall for pinball I think I prefer a game that's a one credit game than a saved progress thing which feels more like 'if I grind enough I'll get there', to me that's less satisfying than putting that one great game together occasionally but I can see why it's popular with some people.

There's a small attempt in TMNT but once you've levelled your turtles there's nothing extra to do there. Mando topper had a little save feature I think? Venom was the first real attempt but for me it doesn't quite work because I feel like to save progress there needs to be extremely deep code or very slow levelling but lots of different, fun ways to level. Venom isn't very deep and the levelling is very quick, once you know what path to go down, every game is very much the same imo, especially after you unlock Captain America. Characters need to be extremely well balanced or just cosmetic to make it an actual choice. Also Venom needs an option to not start the boss battles if you're the right level imo, give you the option to continue to just level without fighting the bosses and losing your grid progress.

I'll watch the gameplay stream on Sunday and maybe make a decision on D&D then. I want to see more of the code but also feel like we haven't really seen how it shoots yet. I do have a couple of empty spaces to fill though...
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The issue is really that there will never be a game which suits all levels of ability.

Take a 'classic' such as AFM. A half decent player will be able to get to the Wizard Mode eventually with a good game. A great player may well get there 1 in 10 games, and then get bored of the game.

Compare that to JP. A half decent player may get to the mini wizard modes occasionally (Secure Control Room, Visitor Centre, Museum Mayhem) but are very unlikely to get to Escape Nublar or WDRTE. A great player will get to them more often, but it's not a given (unless you're Escher).

With more people owning machines at home people don't want to fork out on a game which they'll have seen everything there is to offer after a month or 2, so it needs depth. The problem then is that average players don't get to see all of the coding - thus there needs to be some sort of avenue for them to access it. Short cut to wizard modes is a good example. That is what IC is ultimately designed for, as well as for collecting your badges and achievements.

Where there is also a conflict as you say in Venom, and more well known B66, is that when it comes to tournaments there is only really one big scoring strategy.

There's never going to be a game released which everyone loves (GZ is probably the closest of recent times). When people accept that and buy the games they like, rather than feeling entitled that every game should suit their demands things will be a great deal better.
 
Wayne J said:
The issue is really that there will never be a game which suits all levels of ability.

Take a 'classic' such as AFM. A half decent player will be able to get to the Wizard Mode eventually with a good game. A great player may well get there 1 in 10 games, and then get bored of the game.
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There kinda-of is. That's the beauty of the games that have become 'true' classics.

As per the UK Open, you can make *any* pin harder, and really good games 'open up' as you become a better player. AFM draws in the punters with the excitement of the first saucer, but - then - there are lots of things to go for after that. And, with hungry outlanes and lots of wax on that open playfield, it's not something most players can simply 'finish' and be done with.

I appreciate that some people do get bored when they 'finish' a pin, but pins aren't video games - they're physical objects. They should provide kinetic satisfaction by being fun to shoot, regardless of your ability level.

We have JP2 and TNA here and I'm only reaching paddock 2 most games, and TNA has probably the shortest gameplay loop of a modern pin, but they're super-fun to shoot regardless.

On D&D, I think it would be weird if the pin didn't have a levelling-up mechanic - it's a core part of the theme - but I worry there's a tendency among pinball manufacturers to try to cater for home buyers who turn every new pin to 5 balls, narrow outlanes, bang-bang-finished-the-code, bored now, now onto-the-next-pin, and, if they can't do that instantly, it's a bad machine.

They're the people who the 'grinding' mechanic is for, but for me personally, that's not what makes pinball fun.
 
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VeeMonroe said:
There kinda-of is. That's the beauty of the games that have become 'true' classics.

As per the UK Open, you can make *any* pin harder, and really good games 'open up' as you become a better player. AFM draws in the punters with the excitement of the first saucer, but - then - there are lots of things to go for after that. And, with hungry outlanes and lots of wax on that open playfield, it's not something most players can simply 'finish' and be done with.

I appreciate that some people do get bored when they 'finish' a pin, but pins aren't video games - they're physical objects. They should provide kinetic satisfaction by being fun to shoot, regardless of your ability level.

We have JP2 and TNA here and I'm only reaching paddock 2 most games, and TNA has probably the shortest gameplay loop of a modern pin, but they're super-fun to shoot regardless.

On D&D, I think it would be weird if the pin didn't have a levelling-up mechanic - it's a core part of the theme - but I worry there's a tendency among pinball manufacturers to try to cater for home buyers who turn every new pin to 5 balls, narrow outlanes, bang-bang-finished-the-code, bored now, now onto-the-next-pin, and, if they can't do that instantly, it's a bad machine.

They're the people who the 'grinding' mechanic is for, but for me personally, that's not what makes pinball fun.
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There really isn't.

I have my games set harder than you'll see at any comp, once I start getting tired of them. There simply isn't a game from Bally/Williams DMD era than could hold my attention. I've usually completed wizard mode within a week of having them.
Yes you could remove all outlane posts, change settings to mega hard, slingshots ultra sensitive etc. but then it just isn't any fun to play - why not go one step further and remove the flippers altogether. (Making the game steeper DOES NOT necessarily make any game harder).
 
Wayne J said:
There really isn't.

I have my games set harder than you'll see at any comp, once I start getting tired of them. There simply isn't a game from Bally/Williams DMD era than could hold my attention. I've usually completed wizard mode within a week of having them.
Yes you could remove all outlane posts, change settings to mega hard, slingshots ultra sensitive etc. but then it just isn't any fun to play - why not go one step further and remove the flippers altogether. (Making the game steeper DOES NOT necessarily make any game harder).
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Yes, but - to be fair - you're super-good :)

I see myself as a joke-tier player but, when I go to Pinfest and get into two-player games, I'm about average. That's backed up on IC.

From what I understand about competitive sports, there's a huge gap between scrubs and serious players, and another huge jump to being god-tier.

So, the number of players who actually need the level of coding in some of the modern Sterns is probably low - certainly not enough to run a successful business.
 
@VeeMonroe I’m not sure you’re right saying that the people who adjust their games to get to wizard modes are the people the saved progress appeals to. If you’re happy to adjust a games difficulty to get to the wizard modes then you don’t need the saved game feature.

The saved progress thing isn’t a big appeal to me personally. When I first started playing I set my games up so that it was possible for me to have a decent game as a completely new player. Once I got better and reached the wizard mode I’d make it a little bit harder, I kept doing that until I got to default settings. I still move my outlane posts and have loose tilts though. I’ve actually been thinking recently about changing a few of my settings to a bit easier on JP again as I’m not having fun on it lately. It’d really annoy or bore me to just do the first 2 paddocks over and over again but we all enjoy the hobby in different ways. I don’t think anyone’s wrong in what games they like or how they like to play them, if you’re playing and not having fun, then you’re doing it wrong!
 
Jib said:
@VeeMonroe I’m not sure you’re right saying that the people who adjust their games to get to wizard modes are the people the saved progress appeals to. If you’re happy to adjust a games difficulty to get to the wizard modes then you don’t need the saved game feature.
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I suppose I’m wondering who it *does* appeal to. Casual location players with a background in video games, maybe?

I guess I assume, if I was bothered about getting beyond paddock 2, I’d do what you (and others) do and change the settings until it felt like the right sort of challenge for where I was at 🙂

So it’s a genuine pondering about where Stern is going with this, and why.
 
I think it’s just something new for them to try with Insider Connected.

If I didn’t have the game at home and I can go to my local Pin Bar and save my progress to get me through the map, I think it’s a cool idea.

Plus, you don’t have save it. You can just play.
 
VeeMonroe said:
I suppose I’m wondering who it *does* appeal to
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I was wondering the same thing as I typed that 😂 I think it maybe isn’t a certain type of player but will just be a personal thing, just like not all players of the same ability like/ dislike all the same games.

But I’m glad stern are in a position to try out new things and hope lots of people do enjoy it.
 
Ironically, Venom and the saving in that was one of the things that drew me in to really loving that machine, since then I've played a ton of other machines and really appreciate what pinball can offer.

Now my bigger concern is the table has about 4 shots off the main flippers, and 2 off the 3rd flipper and I'm concerned the pinball elements of it won't keep it exciting enough but I'm looking forward to seeing more gameplay to be proven otherwise.

Brian Eddy is brilliant and I think Dwight Sullivan while a bit eclectic is often misunderstood, I really like his depth.
 
Having watched the gameplay video by Stern I'm now so keen to play this and is definitely going on my list of pins I'd love to own some day. Also the guy playing the machine in that video has insane accuracy
 
For anybody interested in the Bally machine, @8bit-1up has one on location at Playback Arcade in Bristol. Per Pinball Map I think it’s the only one on location in the UK. Played it last week and the flex-saves really messed my brain up - all of your usual roll-up flipper control goes out of the window.
 
I've never changed my games from 3 balls, and the only gameplay changes I make are changing extra credits to extra balls, plus making the tilt quite liberal.

Even when I know a Pin will be leaving me I don't up the number of balls so I can see more of the game, I just don't feel interested enough to do that, so there's large amounts of code that I never see, but that doesn't bother me.

I'd rather feel the elation of achieving something without making it easier.

Nothing wrong though with each person tweaking their game however they want.
 
Devil-Mish said:
Now my bigger concern is the table has about 4 shots off the main flippers, and 2 off the 3rd flipper and I'm concerned the pinball elements of it won't keep it exciting enough but I'm looking forward to seeing more gameplay to be proven otherwise.
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Hear what you’re saying but not unusual for a pin with what appears to be limited shots also turning out to be a gem .Fish Tales springs to mind.
 
Marvello said:
I've never changed my games from 3 balls, and the only gameplay changes I make are changing extra credits to extra balls, plus making the tilt quite liberal.
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Reading lots of the above is fascinating about possible changes to outlanes etc, this is us above, we (myself and the wife) arent very good at all but we enjoy the challenge, I tend to lead with understanding the game and pointing things out, trying new skills and hope to improve, the wife is more like a character from TWD just smashing everything in sight till she loses her ball so its either 5 seconds or 5 minutes she never knows which. We have increased the initial ball save time but not by much.

We think the D&D might suit us as it would finally allow us to play a bit further into the code. Although we have both got to cheery bomb on GotG and onto double monsters on GZ.

Its possible she might even treat us if she thinks its one where she could go a bit further, so it could be a real win for me.
 
On the subject of shots I'm seeing six possible from the main flippers, there's a tight one next to the spinner too.... plus the dragon, captive ball and sneak behind the flipper shot, seems like plenty to shoot for.
Haven't had a chance yet to watch the video, is the shot from the upper flipper loopable ala Shadow?

Not into the theme, but playfield artwork looks great, might be Eddy's best Stern yet.
 
kev a said:
On the subject of shots I'm seeing six possible from the main flippers, there's a tight one next to the spinner too.... plus the dragon, captive ball and sneak behind the flipper shot, seems like plenty to shoot for.
Haven't had a chance yet to watch the video, is the shot from the upper flipper loopable ala Shadow?

Not into the theme, but playfield artwork looks great, might be Eddy's best Stern yet.
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Yeah you're right actually, maybe I judged it too early after rewatching the gameplay.

There are 2 shots that feed that upper flipper, the shot to the left of the right ramp, and the lowest shot off that same flipper so yeah it is loopable, looks like quite a tough shot to hit too, as it's really late on that upper flipper so looping it will probably feel great.

Added a terrible photo for reference!

Screenshot 2025-01-07 at 11.53.12.webp
 
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Devil-Mish said:
Yeah you're right actually, maybe I judged it too early after rewatching the gameplay.

There are 2 shots that feed that upper flipper, the shot to the left of the right ramp, and the lowest shot off that same flipper so yeah it is loopable, looks like quite a tough shot to hit too, as it's really late on that upper flipper so looping it will probably feel great.

Added a terrible photo for reference!
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Does the left orbit feed the upper flipper too?

If so lots of chances for combos, your right about the loop being late on the upper flipper, right off the tip, ball would fly round there.
 
kev a said:
Does the left orbit feed the upper flipper too?

If so lots of chances for combos, your right about the loop being late on the upper flipper, right off the tip, ball would fly round there.
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No, left orbit feeds the gelatenous cube wireform to the right flipper
 
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