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The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread
- Thread starter VeeMonroe
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
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- 3,552
Nobody wants to catch a falling knife. I'll be on the sidelines with Luke and then hoover them all up.
Bobbdobalina
Site Supporter
Sounds very dramatic, but totally agree.
I love arcade cabs and I love pinball machines but as I’ve said before they are simply not worth the price that is be asked both nib and the immediate second hand market.
From what I have seen in my short time in pinball is that the hobby has grown massively thanks mostly to covid. This has skewed the market beyond recognition and is simply unsustainable.
People are fearful of losing money now and there are other priorities in life so fewer will take the risk of nib.
The world is changing so much and so quickly that I bet a lot of the new blood that came into the hobby simply don’t see any value in it anymore and are maybe looking for a way out.
There will always be the better off members of the community that can collect regardless but I believe there’s now a big chunk thinking ‘what the hell was I thinking spending £?????? On a toy’
Of course I’m probably totally wrong and this could just be a lull, but I’ve always been a little ‘half empty’ about life
Not wrong £12k is new kitchen money l a cost difficult to hideSounds very dramatic, but totally agree.
I love arcade cabs and I love pinball machines but as I’ve said before they are simply not worth the price that is be asked both nib and the immediate second hand market.
From what I have seen in my short time in pinball is that the hobby has grown massively thanks mostly to covid. This has skewed the market beyond recognition and is simply unsustainable.
People are fearful of losing money now and there are other priorities in life so fewer will take the risk of nib.
The world is changing so much and so quickly that I bet a lot of the new blood that came into the hobby simply don’t see any value in it anymore and are maybe looking for a way out.
There will always be the better off members of the community that can collect regardless but I believe there’s now a big chunk thinking ‘what the hell was I thinking spending £?????? On a toy’
Of course I’m probably totally wrong and this could just be a lull, but I’ve always been a little ‘half empty’ about life
It’s a buyers market for sure.
No game is worth £10k new let alone £15k. There isn’t a single theme out there that I would stump up that cash for.
A stamp might have doubled in price in the last 10 years but my wages sure as hell haven’t
I suspect a lot of buyers are finding there is very little correlation between the price they bought something at and the price other people are willing to buy at.
I’d probably be in the market for a Godzilla prem at 7k but don’t want one anywhere near enough to pay more. I’m more than happy to keep the cash and play my other games. Same with a raft of other games. I struggled to shift a LE Munsters at 5.5k a few years back. Just because new games are at insane prices doesn’t make the Munsters more expensive.
Nobody “needs” an expensive toy.
If I never sell another game I’m no worse off than I am now.
There’s some games up for sale at what I would view as competitive pricing but there’s barely a sniff.
No game is worth £10k new let alone £15k. There isn’t a single theme out there that I would stump up that cash for.
A stamp might have doubled in price in the last 10 years but my wages sure as hell haven’t
I suspect a lot of buyers are finding there is very little correlation between the price they bought something at and the price other people are willing to buy at.
I’d probably be in the market for a Godzilla prem at 7k but don’t want one anywhere near enough to pay more. I’m more than happy to keep the cash and play my other games. Same with a raft of other games. I struggled to shift a LE Munsters at 5.5k a few years back. Just because new games are at insane prices doesn’t make the Munsters more expensive.
Nobody “needs” an expensive toy.
If I never sell another game I’m no worse off than I am now.
There’s some games up for sale at what I would view as competitive pricing but there’s barely a sniff.
paulg100
Registered
the way i look at it, is ive spent on pins in the last few years what i would have on a nice car... and im not into cars.
Car would loose just as much money, cost more to run and personally provide less fun.
Took a 4k hit on EHOH in about 1.5 years. If i played golf regularly at a nice club would i have spent 4k over a couple of years on membership and green fees etc? probably.
so all a matter of perspective. hobbies are hobbies.
Maybe take up rambling. walking is free
maybe ebay going free will allow people to list there at sensible prices and open up the buyer pool a bit.
Or another option, get a job in the public sector, take a nice fat 20% pay rise, take your employer to court if they try to make you go back to the office more than 2 days a week. then you have the extra money to buy pins and the time to sit at home and play them
Car would loose just as much money, cost more to run and personally provide less fun.
Took a 4k hit on EHOH in about 1.5 years. If i played golf regularly at a nice club would i have spent 4k over a couple of years on membership and green fees etc? probably.
so all a matter of perspective. hobbies are hobbies.
Maybe take up rambling. walking is free
maybe ebay going free will allow people to list there at sensible prices and open up the buyer pool a bit.
Or another option, get a job in the public sector, take a nice fat 20% pay rise, take your employer to court if they try to make you go back to the office more than 2 days a week. then you have the extra money to buy pins and the time to sit at home and play them
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A stamp might have doubled in price in the last 10 years but my wages sure as hell haven’t
Actually if anything my wages have decreasedIt’s a buyers market for sure.
No game is worth £10k new let alone £15k. There isn’t a single theme out there that I would stump up that cash for.
A stamp might have doubled in price in the last 10 years but my wages sure as hell haven’t
I suspect a lot of buyers are finding there is very little correlation between the price they bought something at and the price other people are willing to buy at.
I’d probably be in the market for a Godzilla prem at 7k but don’t want one anywhere near enough to pay more. I’m more than happy to keep the cash and play my other games. Same with a raft of other games. I struggled to shift a LE Munsters at 5.5k a few years back. Just because new games are at insane prices doesn’t make the Munsters more expensive.
Nobody “needs” an expensive toy.
If I never sell another game I’m no worse off than I am now.
There’s some games up for sale at what I would view as competitive pricing but there’s barely a sniff.
The best line from sellers is still ‘but it owes me X amount’. Tbh I couldn’t give a monkeys what someone paid, it’s what I’m willing to pay now as a potential buyer that matters. I’ve bought 4 games since pinfest and in most cases the seller has had to take a min 33% hit on what they paid in covid times on 2nd hand pins
Market is a right mess. I want a new pin but am reluctant to buy until it settles
Hmm. Given most of the public sector have had huge real term pay cuts over the last decade I think you might need to rethink your strategy
Strange how despite the Daily Mail propaganda about huge pay rise, pensions and holidays there are massive recruitment problems across most of the public sector. It’s almost if the people who said “if you don’t like the pay and conditions then leave” were proved right.
In the US you'll currently pay $7000 for a Stern pro. Based on Producer Prices Index increase from 1990 to 2022 (264 points in 2022 with 1990 being 100 points), a pin that cost $2100 to produce then would now cost roughly $5550 to produce.
Allowing for 20% mark up, the 1990 pin would retail at $2520 (about right) and 2022 pin at $6600 - so not far off what you'd expect to be paying. Allowing for RPI and wage inflation, Americans aren't paying significantly more than they ever were.
Unfortunately in the UK, without our own manufacturing capability we get right royally shafted on NIB prices with the negative knock on effects.
Or is that b*****x?
Allowing for 20% mark up, the 1990 pin would retail at $2520 (about right) and 2022 pin at $6600 - so not far off what you'd expect to be paying. Allowing for RPI and wage inflation, Americans aren't paying significantly more than they ever were.
Unfortunately in the UK, without our own manufacturing capability we get right royally shafted on NIB prices with the negative knock on effects.
Or is that b*****x?
SteadyP
Site Supporter
I think it’s fair enough paying near to new if the title is recent, rare, stone cold classic / universally loved; but you’ve got to expect a big hit if you’ve bought something in the last few years given the number of games in circulation and a few so-so titles.
Also- I could clearly see some ridiculous asking prices for games and still think some valuations of games are bonkers (not so much on here- generally FB) - I know these aren’t what pins necessarily sell for. Nobody likes to lose money but this is the reality of pinball ownership unless you hit lucky with a particular game
Also- I could clearly see some ridiculous asking prices for games and still think some valuations of games are bonkers (not so much on here- generally FB) - I know these aren’t what pins necessarily sell for. Nobody likes to lose money but this is the reality of pinball ownership unless you hit lucky with a particular game
At the risk of repeating myself . . .
It's so important to buy games that you love so if you get stuck with them it's really no problem.
I toyed with the idea of selling Lebowski to fund another pin but saw Marvs getting lower and thought "£u(k that for a game of soldiers".
It's really no hardship to keep a game with a bowling alley, killer theme and a ton of toys. . . . besides, I haven't seen anything new I'd prefer anyway.
I took months to decide on Jaws but honestly couldn't be happier. So important to get the decision right.
It's so important to buy games that you love so if you get stuck with them it's really no problem.
I toyed with the idea of selling Lebowski to fund another pin but saw Marvs getting lower and thought "£u(k that for a game of soldiers".
It's really no hardship to keep a game with a bowling alley, killer theme and a ton of toys. . . . besides, I haven't seen anything new I'd prefer anyway.
I took months to decide on Jaws but honestly couldn't be happier. So important to get the decision right.
Jib
Site Supporter
Sometimes you don’t know if you’ll love it or not until you have it at home though. Some games have surprised me, some disappointed, some I have loved for 300-500 games but then I’m bored of it.
I think people just have a different definition of a dead market. I said it’s not dead, it’s just slower and lower because dead to me means nothing's selling no matter the price. The machines for sale section is a mix of for sale, sold/ pending and wanted. I’ve had a big switch around and sold 4 machines in the last 2 months all on the forum, I couldn’t do that if it was dead.
EBay going no fees could be interesting.
I also think it can be a bit of a community self fulfilling thing, every time someone says nothing will sell, prices will fall more etc someone looses confidence in buying or listing something.
I don’t think the market is dead yet, but I am seeing signs that I think mean it will collapse in on itself. This of course is just my opinion, but when demand dries up and people start holding on to games just so they don’t lose money, that is when it goes.
I bet there are a high number of collectors / owners right now that have machines they want to sell or move on, but are not listing through fear of losing money. So there is a difference between keeping a game you love and keeping it as you don’t want to lose money.
I also know of a load of collectors that don’t list on here anymore due to the price drop, but they are now struggling to sell outside.
Have we reached critical mass in this hobby?
I bet there are a high number of collectors / owners right now that have machines they want to sell or move on, but are not listing through fear of losing money. So there is a difference between keeping a game you love and keeping it as you don’t want to lose money.
I also know of a load of collectors that don’t list on here anymore due to the price drop, but they are now struggling to sell outside.
Have we reached critical mass in this hobby?
There's always the trade option where in theory neither party is losing money, it's just getting each party to agree on the value of their Pin which can be tricky in this current market.
Or one side is still living in post COVID prices….
I came into the hobby during COVID-19 and I'm not buying because we're almost out of space, I've already bought most of the pins I was initially excited about, and we bought a NIB (at a vastly inflated price) earlier this year.The world is changing so much and so quickly that I bet a lot of the new blood that came into the hobby simply don’t see any value in it anymore and are maybe looking for a way out.
Of course I’m probably totally wrong and this could just be a lull, but I’ve always been a little ‘half empty’ about life
I'm not selling because I play a lot on location, and only bought pins I enjoy playing enough to own.
Yes, if prices plunged and there were loads of pins on the market, I might swap my Centaur for something else, but - in honestly, right now - it would probably be a different classic, such as Harlem Globetrotters or Fathom. I've never seen a Fathom for sale or trade, and I'm not sure I want a HGT in worse condition than our Centaur.
Short version, I think there was a massive influx of people into the hobby (mostly in the US) during COVID-19 and they've probably had the opportunity, by now, to buy the stuff they want. There was also a period where you could buy a NIB Stern and swap it for another without losing money, and that's now more expensive than it used to be.
I also think the market's flooded, without much associated innovation. When I bought Godzilla as my first NIB, it genuinely felt new and fresh, with interesting ball paths and innovative mechs. There's been a couple of fresh-feeling pins since then (e.g. Foo), but Stern seem to have got into a groove now and everything that's come out has felt the same. I bought EJ because the combination of Steve Ritchie layout and JJP glitz was something I'd wanted for a while, but it's not super-innovative compared to what came before - the opposite, in fact.
Putting all these things together, no, the market probably won't move that fast. And, it's not clear for me personally, whether falling prices would help. Even if NIB pins fell to £1k, with second-hand prices even lower, I've got nowhere to put these pins without selling things I enjoy more. In that scenario, you'd slowly return to the age of big collectors, with a small number of people keeping pins tombstoned to save them from the scrap. Which would be a huge shame because the atmosphere at the clubs (e.g. PBR) is just amazing - there are people playing regularly who don't own their own pins.
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This is the short version?
Crewey
Site Supporter
Assuming the next run of MMr will be the same price as CCr 9.5k for a special, I wonder what current owners will be willing to accept for theirs once deposits can be put down with Phil.
I heard BOM costs were driving it up to 11-13k as it's going to be some royal deluxe model.
I hedged my bets and bought a used MMR LE instead
Crewey
Site Supporter
So they're only doing the Royal edition ?? Madness.
The CCr LE is already £13k the special+ is £10.5k
I'm in if there's a versions under 10k only
Supposed the be one more loud bang edition. I'm hearing 250 units. Justifying some hefty price tag no doubt.
Crewey
Site Supporter
Maybe, an a volume CGC can manage in 12 months
Haha don't bank on it. I'm well on track for winning my bet with Neil on Pulp.
Crewey
Site Supporter
I'm in the same boat as Neil waiting for the BMF edition, happy to wait though as still having radiotherapy for another 4 weeks. So "I'm weak as a kitten" as my father-in-law would sayHaha don't bank on it. I'm well on track for winning my bet with Neil on Pulp.
Good luck with that mateI'm in the same boat as Neil waiting for the BMF edition, happy to wait though as still having radiotherapy for another 4 weeks. So "I'm weak as a kitten" as my father-in-law would say
When I was having treatment I did 6 months of chemo then 3 weeks of daily radiotherapy which f;d me up, had to wear a mask that was bolted down as was in my upper chest/neck which was a nightmare. Burnt my throat so went into hospital for a week on a morphine pump, comfortably numb is an under statement
Crewey
Site Supporter
Ah manGood luck with that mate
When I was having treatment I did 6 months of chemo then 3 weeks of daily radiotherapy which f;d me up, had to wear a mask that was bolted down as was in my upper chest/neck which was a nightmare. Burnt my throat so went into hospital for a week on a morphine pump, comfortably numb is an under statement
I've got 6 weeks of daily radiotherapy (10 of 30 done, on way to 11th sesh now) I've got the moulded bat cowl mask thingy pinning me down from the chest up too.
Definitely keeping that once all finished and spraying it up bat style
6 weeks of dailyAh man
I've got 6 weeks of daily radiotherapy (10 of 30 done, on way to 11th sesh now) I've got the moulded bat cowl mask thingy pinning me down from the chest up too.
Definitely keeping that once all finished and spraying it up bat style
I remember when the machine was doing it’s thing I breathed out so my lungs were as small as possible, don’t know if they got hit less but I’m a geek so felt right
Still got my mask but was done in 2008 so not as fancy as yours, I’m going to take pic……
I made them cut the eyes and mouth out, was having major panic attacks.
