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The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread

RetroHeed said:
Wow.. around 8k for one of the original run ones. Personally at that money you'd be better of adding the extra 600 and buying NIB, and you get your warranty.
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Whether it was an original run for £7k or one of the latest runs for 8.6 has no relevance to its worth now. Condition and mods might but its the same game from those 2 runs and because it's a machine still in production it's value is directly related to what the nib price is now not when you bought it. That's like saying if you a buy a nib FF now for 8.6k and the £ gets even stronger and nib prices go down to 8k, someone who bought at 8.6 should value their game based on what they paid for it, not on the reduced nib price.
 
Some very interesting things mentioned in the last few posts age of a modern game never really seems to affect the price that much it’s not something that people ask me when I sell the game
plays seems asked more
I have a avengers premium I paid £8500 when they where released I doubt if you bought one at today’s price in a years time it would be much different price wise to mine on the second hand market
 
Jib said:
Whether it was an original run for £7k or one of the latest runs for 8.6 has no relevance to its worth now. Condition and mods might but its the same game from those 2 runs and because it's a machine still in production it's value is directly related to what the nib price is now not when you bought it. That's like saying if you a buy a nib FF now for 8.6k and the £ gets even stronger and nib prices go down to 8k, someone who bought at 8.6 should value their game based on what they paid for it, not on the reduced nib price.
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I would have assumed an original run would be worth less, as it would have more games played on it, but I get that may not always be the case. If they are identical then that's fine but are they ? It would be good to know also what if anything has changed hardware wise, any known issues resolved since the original run, newer more reliable boards, hardware changes, fixes etc etc.

If two games were both for sale in the same condition with the same amount of plays, one being an original run and one a month old, both listed for sale at the same price which one would you go for ? If proven the hardware is identical then I guess it doesn't really matter, you go with the one you can collect quickly. Though if lately a 2nd hand GZ Pro is 8k , a NIB is the more sensible route for the warranty piece of mind anyhow.

You may also find that the original run ends up more reliable and sought after actually, you never know if they have switched certain hardware to reduce costs and the quality has actually dropped in certain areas. This is something that would also be good to know because the original run may well worth even more 😂
 
Avengers is a strange one, as it was one of the last games prior to the price hikes that is still in production. A new premium would be £11.5k, the second hand value on that would fall below £10k given the number of previous units already sold so the old units could perhaps effectively devalue the newer ones significantly ?
 
RetroHeed said:
Wow.. around 8k for one of the original run ones. Personally at that money you'd be better of adding the extra 600 and buying NIB, and you get your warranty.
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The GZ Pro that was up for £8k in January was low play and had a lot of (mostly) desirable mods like shaker, invisiglass, Tokyo Neon sign, side art, flipper fans etc. At least £700 worth the advert says so comparing it to a bare bones NIB Pro is not the whole story.
 
Strangely two members on here both asked me around the same time what do I think a Will Indy is worth.
My reply was about 4-5k max for a really nice one but I wouldn’t personally pay that much as I’ve had a couple way back and that’s what I see it at.

However I did say sadly you will have to pay 6-8 which is pretty much spot on what they they paid.
One was players condition with usual faded cab and the other a super nice one tastefully modded, redecalled and so much more.

In a few years if I get asked the same question about the same game they will get the same answer. I think it’s worth 5k but you will have to pay X (x=market value at this time)

People will always pay what they personally think a pin is worth and if they want it bad enough they will always have to go with what the market decides.

Will the market ever get back to where all these games deserve to be which is sub 5k? Simple answer No!

It’s always gonna be supply/demand dictating Market Value unless these interest rates, utility hikes and general cost of living do actually affect this boys toys market.
Upto now it hasn’t that’s for sure.
 
There’s some re adjustment taking place with less sought after pins which is fine by me- I paid half of what some have initially asked for recently on similar / same titles having bought my 1st pin in Nov 2019 just before the lunacy started. I was aware at the time that prices were at an inflated level. I’ll make a comparison between new car sales after the credit crunch kicked in- most mid range brands had very poor sales- people switched to budget brands, Hyundai, Kia and Dacia took off. Renaults, Fords and Vauxhalls took a big hit in our dealerships. VW, Audi and BMW all continued to sell well. It’s not the same, but I don’t see a cost of living crisis affecting people in the market for NIB pins. Lower end pin prices are still too high imo but it must be tough for some to take a hit on what they paid last year, especially if they were told pinball is an investment
 
Jib said:
Whether it was an original run for £7k or one of the latest runs for 8.6 has no relevance to its worth now. Condition and mods might but its the same game from those 2 runs and because it's a machine still in production it's value is directly related to what the nib price is now not when you bought it. That's like saying if you a buy a nib FF now for 8.6k and the £ gets even stronger and nib prices go down to 8k, someone who bought at 8.6 should value their game based on what they paid for it, not on the reduced nib price.
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In pinball right now prices are based on demand; the NIB price is part of that demand equation but it's not absolute. If the market demand drives folks to pay 2G more of a game that didn't cost 2G more then that's what the price is. However, the reality is that few people are shifting used games at that price. This is what is so stupid about EC's pricing, in a suplly market they'd be effectively killing off their own NIB demand by pricing so high. If games were price at the US price +VAT they'd be selling a ton more. The problem is they can't get a ton more and they have a bunch of fixed costs all of which have inflationary pressures. Those buying nearly new close to the NIB price are probably going to feel the pain the most and if I was them I'd buy very carefully at that price and stretch to buy a NIB game. The difference between one owner and two is huge. Until market repair happens in pinball the price is the price and you either buy or you walk. We still have too many people buying for prices to be sensible, so when you think you are making money on the 6,5K NIB you bought that you sell for a grand more, unless you walk out of pinball there and then, you aren't making a penny and in fact are probably making a significant loss.

Regards,
Neil.
 
All of us have a line in the sand for what they are willing to pay.
I honestly thought mine was £6k for a NIB. Then it slid up to 7k. 🤬

Turns out the breaking point for me was 10k. I can’t think of any theme I’d pay that for.

There’s been a couple of games in the last 12 months that I was vaguely interested in but the price killed it stone dead. I just don’t want to have that kind of money tied up in a single game.
I know you can still get a new Pro for under 10 grand but that seems a lot of cash for a compromised toy.

In the past I’d take a punt on any game I hadn’t previously owned on the second hand market but things simply aren’t coming on. When was the last time a Ripley’s etc was offered for sale? As such I then don’t shift any of my games on. It’s a bit of a vicious circle.
 
It's not much of a debate as like all things in life possessions are only worth what someone it prepared to pay for them?

How badly do you want something and what are you prepared to pay?

Cost and worth are two separate things.

Just don't be that person who spends loads and then complains how much it cost them. 😆
 
johnwhitfield said:
In the past I’d take a punt on any game I hadn’t previously owned on the second hand market but things simply aren’t coming on. When was the last time a Ripley’s etc was offered for sale? As such I then don’t shift any of my games on. It’s a bit of a vicious circle.
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I think this is a big part of the problem. We're now at a point where prices are so high that rather than having games being moved around frequently because people know they can buy them back - they cling onto them not knowing if they can get another and also thinking they're probably going to have to pay x amount more for the exact same game. This drives the price up even more when someone does finally decide to sell one.

Prediction from me is in 20-30-40 or whatever years you'll suddenly see huge collections where people hoarded games come up for sale when they pass on, still at silly money :D
 
Another factor I saw recently is investors *shudder*.

I've seen it happen in classic video game collecting but I don't know how prevalent it is in pinball as of yet. I came across a pretty disgusting video on youtube of people who have 0 interest in video games at all, but simply see them as a tangible asset for investing into to artificially bloat the prices up to sell at a profit down the line. They openly admitted they don't care 1 bit about the games themselves aside from the fact that they'll make them money. This has conversely had the effect of driving 'regular' collectors out the hobby. I read a pretty harrowing account from a guy in the comments who lamented about how he had been driven out due to the insane prices. He had a big collection of games himself from years being involved in it and had been offered crazy money, but refused to sell unless he had to. He went on to say he hoped prices dropped because he missed being involved in his hobby.

Not saying that will happen with pinball, we're talking about machines that are already 10-100x the price of a vintage video game (depending of course on what the game is etc) but if they get a whiff it might make them money I could see things getting even worse. The only reason I mention it is because I saw someone start a thread on reddit titled 'Pinball as an investment?' starting to ask questions about how possible it would be. Thankfully most people put in their 2 cents it was already expensive enough and the returns would be minimal, but I dread to think it could have gone the other way!
 
AlanJ said:
When will the UK pinball market bottom out?

Have we hit the bottom yet, or is there still further price drops to go?
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It'll keep going until cost of living crisis is over. Look at the prices for 2020 I'd say. That's where it may go to.
 
I think it will go back to 2018/19 prices eventually, they went up way too much. What the hell happened!
People are going to have to take a hit unless they want to keep it, people new to the hobby helped drive prices up.

The days of £4-5k TZ‘s and £4-5k TAF’s wasn’t that long ago, I can remember thinking £2k was too much for a TAF😂😭

Restored pins is a different beast though.

New pin prices😮‍💨
 
AlanJ said:
When will the UK pinball market bottom out?

Have we hit the bottom yet, or is there still further price drops to go?
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I don't think it's bottoming out, just recorrecting to pre-covid levels. £8k for 2nd hand pros and £10k+ for 2nd hand premiums is mental money. It wasn't that long ago you could get 2 x NIB pros for £10k!
 
M4carp said:
I think it will go back to 2018/19 prices eventually, they went up way too much. What the hell happened!
People are going to have to take a hit unless they want to keep it, people new to the hobby helped drive prices up.

The days of £4-5k TZ‘s and £4-5k TAF’s wasn’t that long ago, I can remember thinking £2k was too much for a TAF😂😭

Restored pins is a different beast though.

New pin prices😮‍💨
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My TAF sold for 5k in early summer 2020 , just after first lockdown. I was more than happy considering what I paid for it in 2010 😁
A year later 6k or 7k seemed the norm .
 
Sgt GrizZ said:
My TAF sold for 5k in early summer 2020 , just after first lockdown. I was more than happy considering what I paid for it in 2010 😁
A year later 6k or 7k seemed the norm .
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I bought a nice restored TAF for £5k on here in 2019, thought that was a lot but had to get it out of my system.
 
It’s still mad at the lower end!
Recent auctions
Bally bugs bunny (looked all there but a project) sold for £950 + 27.6% fees???

A rusty Lethal weapon (looked all there but a project) sold for £1750 + 26.7% fees???

Wow
 
windoesnot said:
The VAT
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The very best titles are a tiny bit bullet proof from big price drops due to the fact that they’re still selling well off the line and if others have another run they would sell incredibly well. I’m talking GZ, JP2, MM, MB. Basically wheat is slowly separating from chaff
 
CHRIS B PINBALLS said:
I suspect more to come and i think people thinking they are going to get close to what they paid nib for used are dreaming be very interesting to see what people will pay for a second hand stern Le that retails at 16k
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Agreed, all the signs are that there's a long way down to go yet.
 
Kelsbells said:
The very best titles are a tiny bit bullet proof from big price drops due to the fact that they’re still selling well off the line and if others have another run they would sell incredibly well. I’m talking GZ, JP2, MM, MB. Basically wheat is slowly separating from chaff
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Yes, this is what @roadshow16 suggested on my JP2 thread. I'd been assuming most of the modern (Spike 2) Sterns were semi-interchangeable and, thus, the second-hand prices would fall similar between pins. Craig thought JP2 Prem/LE wouldn't drop from NIB as much as I'd hoped because it's such a well-regarded title (and people who like difficult shooters tend to keep them around for years, reducing the number of sales).

I, personally, don't think Stern are going to make anything like JP2 going forwards, although I'm sure they'll make several more hit pins. It's obvious watching Foo Fighters in Funland that the magic formula for success on location and home use is a pin that feels fun to play, even if you're scoring badly, but where there's an option for deeper exploration through harder shots. There was a dad/daughter duo playing two-player games of Foo where they never got above 4 million (I got 76 million and aren't very good) and they were on there for hours. If you're not very good, JP2 is a nightmare of press button once, brick some shots, drain and give up. If I were Stern, I'd just try to replicate the Foo/GZ formula going forward - there simply aren't many people (at home and on location) interested in tournament play.
 
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Kelsbells said:
The very best titles are a tiny bit bullet proof from big price drops due to the fact that they’re still selling well off the line and if others have another run they would sell incredibly well. I’m talking GZ, JP2, MM, MB. Basically wheat is slowly separating from chaff
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So what do people think a GZ Pro would go for now? I haven't seen any for sale recently
 
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