This
. I know it shouldn't bother me but I've had to bite my tongue a few times and resist commenting in some of the for sale threads.
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The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread
- Thread starter VeeMonroe
- Start date
. I know it shouldn't bother me but I've had to bite my tongue a few times and resist commenting in some of the for sale threads.
Worth mentioning that just because someone *can* afford NIB doesn't mean they necessarily want to own NIB. There's not a sliding scale of pinball desirability by age/price with JJP Godfather on the top, and Zaccaria Robot on the bottom, meaning that the wealthier community members own 100% Stern LEs, and everyone else is lucky if they get a beat-up Harlem Globe Trotters at a discount price.
If you are lucky enough to play a lot of pins on location, you swiftly realise that there are amazing pins at a variety of price points, and a significant percentage of Stern's new releases (as an example) are mediocre at best.
I’d personally love to agree with this, problem for me here is that with my work I work on/sell CNC machines, many of these are the type of machines that are used in the manufacture of pinball machine components. The cost of some of the CNC machine parts have trebled in the last three years and with some hydraulic/lube oils doubled in the last three years. With that information I then understand why some of the NIB pinball machine prices have increased so much, used machines to a degree follow the prices of NIB.
Not saying it’s right prices are at where they’re at, just my observations.
And whilst folks hit frenzy levels to throw money at new releases as soon as dealers will take their deposits/payments it’s never going to make the manufacturers to look too hard at making cost reductions.
Chris.
That is all correct for NIB, but I am talking about secondhand games. Like I said, I won’t name any games / sellers, but you can see for yourself a number of machines with inflated prices, not selling and also not being reduced.
The other thing I notice is a load of games from here that don’t sell, suddenly move to eBay because they obviously think it worth that. They also sit there.
I guess my point is either you want to sell or you don’t, with some sellers trying to keep the market inflated.
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A lot of people seems to cling on to the idea that pinflation has doubled the value of ALL games in x period of time so when selling the asking price reflects this. It’s simply not true. An older pin that was considered an average game that wasn’t sought after 3 years ago is still an average game with a limited market to sell to. Maybe during covid you could try your luck at an inflated price and the number of new people joining the hobby effected the availability/supply of pins so you could get a sale. I’ll use the transformers I sold not long ago as an example. I bought it quite a while back ex operated that needed attention for 2200. A few bits for it and a service and it owed me 2900 + martins transport cost. Transformers is a good theme but the game is only ok and not something people refer to as a must own at some point. I had numerous people tell me it was worth up to 4K. I still can’t see it. Yes I could have probably got 3250 but with that type of game the higher the price the less people will be interested. I think it would still be sat for sale now at 4K.
There are a lot of games around that people overpaid for. They will either need to keep it long term for inflation to catch up of take a decent sized loss when selling as general liquidity in the 2nd hand market reduces for B and C titles
The steep increase in nib has also sheltered a lot of people from what should be a natural decrease in value once something is no longer brand new. It was the norm that you bought a pro for 6250. The first couple to sell 2nd hand post release would be around 5700 and then they would change hands for 5500. Le’s were even more dramatic- nib 9k but almost straight away if you want to sell then you were getting 7500/7750. A lot of games from the last few years if you bought on release you are probably getting more than you originally paid or at least breaking even. Can this continue long term
There are a lot of games around that people overpaid for. They will either need to keep it long term for inflation to catch up of take a decent sized loss when selling as general liquidity in the 2nd hand market reduces for B and C titles
The steep increase in nib has also sheltered a lot of people from what should be a natural decrease in value once something is no longer brand new. It was the norm that you bought a pro for 6250. The first couple to sell 2nd hand post release would be around 5700 and then they would change hands for 5500. Le’s were even more dramatic- nib 9k but almost straight away if you want to sell then you were getting 7500/7750. A lot of games from the last few years if you bought on release you are probably getting more than you originally paid or at least breaking even. Can this continue long term
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Jib
Site Supporter
I don’t think it’s always people being greedy. NIB prices are still the highest they’ve ever been, it makes some sense that people expect used prices to be too.
I’ll take my AIQ that’s for sale as an example as I don’t mind taking a little criticism. I bought it for £9k around 6 months ago, prem nib was £10.5k at the time and is now £11.7k, I also spent about £500 on side armour, flipper fans and a couple of other mods. For both those reasons I listed it for more than the 9k I paid for it. Some people will say that’s greedy but I think regardless of if you value the mods, I was just following the nib price.
It’s not sold yet so maybe I’m wrong and it’ll only sell if I reduce it to £9k, that or I make more space, keep it and the multi-gyms days are numbered!
I’ll take my AIQ that’s for sale as an example as I don’t mind taking a little criticism. I bought it for £9k around 6 months ago, prem nib was £10.5k at the time and is now £11.7k, I also spent about £500 on side armour, flipper fans and a couple of other mods. For both those reasons I listed it for more than the 9k I paid for it. Some people will say that’s greedy but I think regardless of if you value the mods, I was just following the nib price.
It’s not sold yet so maybe I’m wrong and it’ll only sell if I reduce it to £9k, that or I make more space, keep it and the multi-gyms days are numbered!
ian866
Site Supporter
If it's not a desirable / unobtainable pin, I doubt most people would achieve over £10K for a pin they might have even paid £15-16k for. The latest Stern releases of Bond and FF put the LE up here.
What would a Bond LE sell for now, I'd estimate the number of people wiling to pay over the £10k mark for a used pin is very small, it might go up to £11.5k but I can't see the ceiling going any higher, not from this point on. Regardless of new pin price ( LE ).
I also think people are now looking at original sale price values and factoring that into what something is valued at when looking to buy, the for sale section recently could indicate that ?
What would a Bond LE sell for now, I'd estimate the number of people wiling to pay over the £10k mark for a used pin is very small, it might go up to £11.5k but I can't see the ceiling going any higher, not from this point on. Regardless of new pin price ( LE ).
I also think people are now looking at original sale price values and factoring that into what something is valued at when looking to buy, the for sale section recently could indicate that ?
I think that is what I struggle with sometimes and this is not aimed at you, as you have given a very honest and open in your reply there. But it’s the selling at a price or not selling at all.
But imagine you were selling a second hand car. You would check your prices against others, maybe ask what the trade in value was and maybe use a buying website to get a market value.
I would use that value and put it up for sale. It it sells great, but if it didn’t I would lower the price until I got some interest (that is the definition of market value). It is highly unlikely most people would set a price and if it’s not achieved, simply keep it.
Back to pinball, I think maybe those with the space and don’t need money for their next game can do this, but for me, if I am selling I need it gone.
I think that is what I am struggling with on the marketplace on here lately, not allowing the market to find its value.
Anyway, again, this is just my 10 cents.
ian866
Site Supporter
It's all about the elasticity of demand, and I believe it's probably stretched as far as it's likely too, time will tell.
Jib
Site Supporter
I’m not against reducing it to see where its value really is, I did already reduce it slightly but yeah there is a point I’d rather just keep it and get a bit more value out of it by playing it more but it won’t be tombstoned, it’ll still be played if I keep it or temp traded for something else. That’s where the line is for me, I don’t want to store something I’m not playing but others don’t mind doing that and it’s up to each person what they’re happy with.
100%
Some people seem to think £5k is the starting price for games like LW3, Tommy, Dr Who etc.
LW3 will always be a £1600 game to me
Bobbdobalina
Site Supporter
I think for a lot of people who are in the market for a new pin will see a high end second hand game and then look at one of the recent new releases for similar ish money and go nib.
If you can be bothered to wait though! It’s the wait with NIB which makes it completely pointless to me. If I’m gonna blow 10k on a toy I want it sat next to me within a week.
LW3 will always be a £1600 game to me
I bought one for £350 off eBay back in the day!
Living the dream
ian866
Site Supporter
Fair point, but would ( will ) people pay more than £10k for a second hand toy ? I doubt it very much. Once you are into that territory it has to be coveted or limited to an exceptional few titles.
NIB will always be attractive to most, once ( if ) second hand sales start pushing prices higher those, the market will stagnate.
With so many new releases due to arrive and people having to make room or move on, it could end up a race to the bottom !
As someone who doesn't currently own a Pin I've been waiting for this moment!
Fubar
Registered
You have to expect to lose money on a NIB. Used to be 1000 but now closer to 500 when you open the box.
That same NIB having a higher price tag today doesn't really matter until some have actually sold at that higher price. Remember they're listed at that price but Stern won't even have a date for building them! If you bought a 7k pro NIB a year or two ago it's not suddenly worth 8.5k imho.
That same NIB having a higher price tag today doesn't really matter until some have actually sold at that higher price. Remember they're listed at that price but Stern won't even have a date for building them! If you bought a 7k pro NIB a year or two ago it's not suddenly worth 8.5k imho.
D
Deleted member 2463
taz nailed it. the cost of making games is on the way up, sure there are a few cash grabs, Toy Story 4/TGF CE and Bond 60th, and why not, every company does it and if there is a market great. Other stuff is the same. My car I paid 40K for in 2001, the latest but same model now is 100K.
I hear more about people being priced out of the market every day, but I don't think we've found the top of the market, indeed I've had to eat my own words on 10K being the top I'd be willing to pay. However something really big changed this month with so many new titles being launched but also the market controller, Stern, moving to a much bigger factory that needs to make a return and the availability of games likely to be on the up it will definitely affect second hand prices, this is already happening in the US for sure and I picked up a few games from TPF of the back of it, the UK it will happen eventually but take a bit longer also as Stern are turning the pressure to sell up on their existing distribution partners as well as the cost of shipping slowly reducing.
but its in the hands of the buyers. If you are stupid enough to buy a game made at one price point being sold at the new price point then you deserve the market you will get... I bought a game recently, the seller wanted close to the current NIB price, I told him that he had a game that he paid way less for, he was but look at the new price, I said fine I'll buy a new one, and made him an offer that meant he lost nothing on the game. He resisted and put the price up £500 but then a few weeks later asked me if I was still interested at the price I offered and I bought the game. We have a market where folks aren;'t willing to walk away enough and until that changes the prices are headed in one direction.
Cheers,
Neil.
I hear more about people being priced out of the market every day, but I don't think we've found the top of the market, indeed I've had to eat my own words on 10K being the top I'd be willing to pay. However something really big changed this month with so many new titles being launched but also the market controller, Stern, moving to a much bigger factory that needs to make a return and the availability of games likely to be on the up it will definitely affect second hand prices, this is already happening in the US for sure and I picked up a few games from TPF of the back of it, the UK it will happen eventually but take a bit longer also as Stern are turning the pressure to sell up on their existing distribution partners as well as the cost of shipping slowly reducing.
but its in the hands of the buyers. If you are stupid enough to buy a game made at one price point being sold at the new price point then you deserve the market you will get... I bought a game recently, the seller wanted close to the current NIB price, I told him that he had a game that he paid way less for, he was but look at the new price, I said fine I'll buy a new one, and made him an offer that meant he lost nothing on the game. He resisted and put the price up £500 but then a few weeks later asked me if I was still interested at the price I offered and I bought the game. We have a market where folks aren;'t willing to walk away enough and until that changes the prices are headed in one direction.
Cheers,
Neil.
D
Deleted member 2463
I think you've got a long wait ahead.
ian866
Site Supporter
Interest rates will go higher again this year, there is also the possibility of the pound strengthening ( more likely the Dollar falling as it becomes less attractive internationally ) which will likely put more pressure on S/hand sales.
Some people have to sell, they can't physically hoard everything they would like, this will be the test of the market in the short term.
Some people have to sell, they can't physically hoard everything they would like, this will be the test of the market in the short term.
I do wonder whether all the new competition will harm the bigger companies?
For years it was Stern on its own. Then Stern vs JJP. Now they have to compete for sales with JJP, Spooky, CGC, American Pinball etc.
It's still a reasonably niche hobby where every sale counts
For years it was Stern on its own. Then Stern vs JJP. Now they have to compete for sales with JJP, Spooky, CGC, American Pinball etc.
It's still a reasonably niche hobby where every sale counts
ian866
Site Supporter
I don't believe Stern have any competition as such, it's more a question of do they shoot themselves in the foot and drive customers away to other manufacturers ?
If they have, they are currently offsetting that loss in revenue by increasing prices. The production numbers don't indicate that though !
If they have, they are currently offsetting that loss in revenue by increasing prices. The production numbers don't indicate that though !
Sadly I have seen many times mentioned maybe on here and on some YouTube videos, people are saying "you get your money back when it comes to sell your machine"
I don't believe in that. Sure possibly if you are purchasing games that are already highly sought after, but for the more common games you should no be expecting to get back what you paid for it, unless you picked it up at a really great price.
I way overpaid for my first machine, I knew that and at the time I as happy with that. In the end I lost say around £70 a month since owning it, again thats fine we played hundreds of games on it since owning it. My last game I also sold for lower than I paid for it. Many times I see someone say on sales listings I paid such and such for it and would like back what I paid for it, despite owning it for months and months sometimes up to a year. Many just trying to get back what they paid for them, again that's fine if it's a sought after and a difficult pin to source.
As others have said, expect to loose a fair bit on selling your NIB purchase, again depends on what model or the machine is. But for example I think a newer release 2nd hand ! Godzilla Pro now is likely to be 7.5k possibly slightly lower. Those who bought one back when they were 7K NIB and expect over 7k for it is nuts in my opinion, you should be snatching a buyers offer at 7k for a higher mileage machine you owned for ages..
I did think initially at looking at the 4k machine listed for sale currently (looks a real nice machine), but sadly no funds at the moment. But I did say to my mate, you buy a machine like that keep it for 12 months and when your bored with it you should be able to sell it for £3300, 3400 quite easily, cost to you is £50-60 a month so all good.
For me it is not about getting your money back, its about having fun with them when you own them.
I don't believe in that. Sure possibly if you are purchasing games that are already highly sought after, but for the more common games you should no be expecting to get back what you paid for it, unless you picked it up at a really great price.
I way overpaid for my first machine, I knew that and at the time I as happy with that. In the end I lost say around £70 a month since owning it, again thats fine we played hundreds of games on it since owning it. My last game I also sold for lower than I paid for it. Many times I see someone say on sales listings I paid such and such for it and would like back what I paid for it, despite owning it for months and months sometimes up to a year. Many just trying to get back what they paid for them, again that's fine if it's a sought after and a difficult pin to source.
As others have said, expect to loose a fair bit on selling your NIB purchase, again depends on what model or the machine is. But for example I think a newer release 2nd hand ! Godzilla Pro now is likely to be 7.5k possibly slightly lower. Those who bought one back when they were 7K NIB and expect over 7k for it is nuts in my opinion, you should be snatching a buyers offer at 7k for a higher mileage machine you owned for ages..
I did think initially at looking at the 4k machine listed for sale currently (looks a real nice machine), but sadly no funds at the moment. But I did say to my mate, you buy a machine like that keep it for 12 months and when your bored with it you should be able to sell it for £3300, 3400 quite easily, cost to you is £50-60 a month so all good.
For me it is not about getting your money back, its about having fun with them when you own them.
Jib
Site Supporter
Yeah, that’s fine if nib prices had stayed the same but they haven’t. You might think it’s nuts to ask over 7k for a gz pro, I think someone selling a gz pro for under 7k would be nuts as I think the last couple have been around 8k
D
Deleted member 2463
it’s the person that buys it for more than 7K that’s nuts.
I was ‘offered’ a Stern Pro that was quite a few years old, nice condition but not unmarked that was originally around £6.5K new, mine for just £8K! Seller seemed confused when I suggested I could buy a latest Pro game for £500 more, have it delivered FOC, rather than a further £100 to Martin and receive a 2 year warranty on the new machine.
This was offered here on Pininfo.
So as I said earlier, new prices do have a direct effect on used prices, TAF, Wh20, FT, the list goes on, they are not <£1K anymore.
You make your choice and pay your money, or not!
Chris.
This was offered here on Pininfo.
So as I said earlier, new prices do have a direct effect on used prices, TAF, Wh20, FT, the list goes on, they are not <£1K anymore.
You make your choice and pay your money, or not!
Chris.