My assumption is that coding is less work than testing shots on a real pinball machine.
vPins aren’t good enough to be able to perfectly model ball physics, so you presumably spend a lot of time building and testing ball paths and mechs (?)
Pinball info
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread
- Thread starter VeeMonroe
- Start date
vPins aren’t good enough to be able to perfectly model ball physics, so you presumably spend a lot of time building and testing ball paths and mechs (?)
That’s where the experience and knowledge of the designer becomes so valuable and hence why you got the reaction you did to your claims you’d make a better game kids game than Pat Lawlor.
What do vpins have to do with this? They use a whitewood pretty early on I'm sure and doing rules is probably quite deep, look at how often stern updates theirs.
From watching the Stern ‘how pin X is made’ videos, they use a computer to render a picture of the playfield.
This may be to aid cutting/building the white wood, but the way Keith Elwin’s pins are designed, I assume that he uses a computer model to test basic ball paths before moving to a white wood. It may not be how Stern design pins, but it’s how pharmaceutical companies design drugs and AFAIK pharma got these techniques from the car industry.
Based on vPins, it’s not yet possible with present-day computer tech to perfectly accurately model ball physics - so you still need to do a lot of physical testing once you’ve got a basic design.
I got the reaction I did because this is the internet and everyone takes everything out of context. My point was TS4 wasn’t, in fact, designed for kids under 40. Everyone pretty much agreed with that.
Last edited:
Doggard
Site Supporter
Jack danger created his home pin in visual pinball, I heard him say this on his twitch.
There’s even talk of it being released to play
At Heighway the game was modelled in VPin because Dave has a VPin background. Only place I know does this. It doesn't really work in the the real world for several reasons e.g. the physics (as you mention) the mechanism is larger on the underside (like an iceberg!) and you have to allow for this in a real game (that is ignored in VP). Things like clearance under ramps etc.
Of the 4 games I have designed, none have been done in VP. You get a feel for trajectory and I do this by drawing on the ball path. This doesn't mean its fun to shoot though and only a real whitewood will decide that.
As for software, well 4 years building FP and 12 programming it, says different to your impression. A game needs a good layout AND good software one simply is not valuable without the other.
I assumed a big firm like Stern had custom software where, if you add a ramp (for example), it renders all the supports under the playfield and you can keep flipping the virtual playfield over to make sure the elements don’t overlap.
As for software, well 4 years building FP and 12 programming it, says different to your impression. A game needs a good layout AND good software one simply is not valuable without the other.
Yeah, I get the importance of software. I think I have a bias towards the relative difficulty of coding versus building white wood playfields because I’ve coded professionally, but am **** at woodwork.
Ok I have been relatively quiet on this subject and what do I know I have only been doing it 25 years
I think over the last 2 years prices have gone up but this has been mainly down to covid lots of money cheep money been thrown about and lack of supply in new games and people paying massively over the odds because they can’t find anything thing else
Move on 2 years and things are now starting to change I think the bubble has burst are pins going to be worth nothing certain not are they going to come down to more sensible price then yes
Looking at e bay and the group the last few weeks then we can clearly see this lots more games coming up and not selling instantly although there is still the odd exception a few pins on e bay at the moment on auction will be interesting to see what these go for a few bin which started at silly money coming down
I have avoided paying silly money for pins over the last 2 years but I haven’t been offered as much but I have still got some the last 2 months I have been offered much more which suggests there is a down turn coming and if you have bought over the last 2 years then you may be in for a rude awakening
I also see a big downturn in nib sales with price increases and a poor pound to dollar return I think jjp have absolutely killed toy story at £12500 and I expect stern to follow soon I think these prices have now tipped the balance of what most people are willing to pay
I also expect second hand ex nib games to simmer down back to pre covid prices you would probably lose 1k plus on a pro more on Le and premium mainly due to more availability
So good in some ways things more affordable bad if you payed silly money for something
I think over the last 2 years prices have gone up but this has been mainly down to covid lots of money cheep money been thrown about and lack of supply in new games and people paying massively over the odds because they can’t find anything thing else
Move on 2 years and things are now starting to change I think the bubble has burst are pins going to be worth nothing certain not are they going to come down to more sensible price then yes
Looking at e bay and the group the last few weeks then we can clearly see this lots more games coming up and not selling instantly although there is still the odd exception a few pins on e bay at the moment on auction will be interesting to see what these go for a few bin which started at silly money coming down
I have avoided paying silly money for pins over the last 2 years but I haven’t been offered as much but I have still got some the last 2 months I have been offered much more which suggests there is a down turn coming and if you have bought over the last 2 years then you may be in for a rude awakening
I also see a big downturn in nib sales with price increases and a poor pound to dollar return I think jjp have absolutely killed toy story at £12500 and I expect stern to follow soon I think these prices have now tipped the balance of what most people are willing to pay
I also expect second hand ex nib games to simmer down back to pre covid prices you would probably lose 1k plus on a pro more on Le and premium mainly due to more availability
So good in some ways things more affordable bad if you payed silly money for something
Jib
Site Supporter
I agree that people are probably going to start being less eager to snap everything up in minutes at whatever price but with the price increases on NIB this week £1k off a pro is now £7k so maybe not actually cheaper on those resales than we've seen recently, just more of a discount from NIB price?
Bobbdobalina
Site Supporter
Yeah totally agree with both of the above.
There doesn’t seem to be that panic, feverishly buying/bidding on any pin that pops up.
Buyers being a bit more discerning with their choice of pin and the condition it’s in.
On another note, people saying a recession is coming.
Well as an electrician who likes a good weigh in. The price of bright wire copper is £5.50 kg as I take boot load this morning. A month ago it was well over £7!
Is that an indicator of a downturn? I really hope not
There doesn’t seem to be that panic, feverishly buying/bidding on any pin that pops up.
Buyers being a bit more discerning with their choice of pin and the condition it’s in.
On another note, people saying a recession is coming.
Well as an electrician who likes a good weigh in. The price of bright wire copper is £5.50 kg as I take boot load this morning. A month ago it was well over £7!
Is that an indicator of a downturn? I really hope not
Yes if you bought it nib then yes 1k less would be a bargain for someone but the nib purchasers have still lost 1k and then if there is nib stock you have to add up a huo game with let’s say 500 games on it against a nib brand new with 2 years warranty
On another thing I will use my nib avengers pro as example when I bought it retail was £6500 now it’s going to be 8k so if you did buy a modern stern at £6500 you would probably be quids in doesn’t apply to all models though
If you can afford a NIB then being honest you can probably afford to take a 1k hit on it when you move it in. How much pleasure have you had out of it? I don’t look at all the band t shirts I buy over the course of a year and fret about their resale price being pretty much zero. How many people would buy a tv and even consider the depreciation
Nobody likes losing money on resale but it’s been a sellers market for a long time now.
Nobody likes losing money on resale but it’s been a sellers market for a long time now.
inflation at 10%. do the maths. £8k today £8,800 next year. £9,680 in 2024. £10k + in 2025.
only saving grace might be a strong GBP/USD.
only saving grace might be a strong GBP/USD.
Also worth bearing in mind that the main way to combat high inflation is a blunt tool - interest rates will continue to go up until inflation is brought under control, and history shows that a big recession follows. At the moment it's bad enough with food and fuel prices going through the roof - but it'll really hit home when people can't pay their mortgages any more.
Silverpaolo
Site Supporter
Following
Doggard
Site Supporter
I’ve recently sold a drone I bought 5 years ago, paid £1350 for it, sold for £300
On the flip side, also just sold my 1976 Raleigh chopper for £1200, paid £320 for it 12 years ago
You win some, you loose some, ain’t worth stressing about, it is what it is
Yep.Like many in here I have lost beloved family members to cancer - one day everything is fine, the next you can be told you have months to live.
Worrying about a few hundred quid on a toy can suddenly seem ridiculous.
Crack on with life, be good to yourself and others ,and the planet , you’ll be gone and forgotten about before you know it . A tiny insignificant footnote in the history of the universe, an amalgamation of elements that briefly came together - flared into life for a moment - then moved on to other things. We have all existed , and will exist for aeons , just not playing pinball
Have a great weekend stardust people
Ashbo
Site Supporter
Amen!! Well said.Yep.Like many in here I have lost beloved family members to cancer - one day everything is fine, the next you can be told you have months to live.
Worrying about a few hundred quid on a toy can suddenly seem ridiculous.
Crack on with life, be good to yourself and others ,and the planet , you’ll be gone and forgotten about before you know it . A tiny insignificant footnote in the history of the universe, an amalgamation of elements that briefly came together - flared into life for a moment - then moved on to other things. We have all existed , and will exist for aeons , just not playing pinball
Have a great weekend stardust people
Just checked Halloween’s price and listed at £500 more now, not good
.
Last edited:
Yes holiday lul but I don’t think the prices will resume as they have been
in the autumn I think they will be lower lots of money getting slashed of pins for sale now and we haven’t seen this many pins for sale in some time
in the autumn I think they will be lower lots of money getting slashed of pins for sale now and we haven’t seen this many pins for sale in some time
Just perusing NIB prices with all the latest releases, first time I've looked in a while and it was quite a shock. I know about inflation, cost of raw materials bah, blah, blah but still, every new Pin feels like it is £2000 more than it should be.
I guess this isn't news to most of you, it's just a little demoralising where this hobby is going.
Maybe when I started in 2015 other long standing members of the community were thinking the same.
I guess this isn't news to most of you, it's just a little demoralising where this hobby is going.
Maybe when I started in 2015 other long standing members of the community were thinking the same.
I'm actually suprised you dumped your collection, going back in from scratch now is going to be hard based on I'd assume:
- What they were worth when you started the hobby
- What they are costing now
- Nothing to trade to soften the blow
I honestly thought I came into the hobby at a bad time, but seeing how prices are going now (especially for NIB) I may have not bothered at all.
There's still deals to be had, don't get me wrong. Just far less of them (IMO).
Fubar
Registered
What's a shocker is Stern prices increased to current £ values when the exchange rate was down Truss' toilet and now that it's back up by 10% the uk distributors are just pocketing the difference 
Godzilla pro: $6999. Add 500 for shipping: $7500 = £6100 (GBPUSD=1.23). 20% VAT puts that at £7320 yet it retails for £8600 today!!
Godzilla pro: $6999. Add 500 for shipping: $7500 = £6100 (GBPUSD=1.23). 20% VAT puts that at £7320 yet it retails for £8600 today!!
What's a shocker is Stern prices increased to current £ values when the exchange rate was down Truss' toilet and now that it's back up by 10% the uk distributors are just pocketing the difference
Godzilla pro: $6999. Add 500 for shipping: $7500 = £6100 (GBPUSD=1.23). 20% VAT puts that at £7320 yet it retails for £8600 today!!
Hey mate, there will be a chinwag later where we'll go into this but your calculations don't factor in Electrocoin who are basically a middle man in the UK.
I still weep when I look at the ads in the Coinslot paper I used to get back in the ‘90s, where Addams Family tables S/H were £495.
Back in the day I would think “Why would I want to pay that much for a three year old pin?”.
Back in the day I would think “Why would I want to pay that much for a three year old pin?”.
Fubar
Registered
Yes I'm aware most of the difference is due to the electrocoin tax. Doesn't make it any better!
Do you really think the Uk would be better without electrocoin I doubt it they probably have to buy 50 plus machines of every title and pay in full so even if the make 10% it’s a lot of outlay on a small return and if the game is a flop they are stuck with itWhat's a shocker is Stern prices increased to current £ values when the exchange rate was down Truss' toilet and now that it's back up by 10% the uk distributors are just pocketing the difference
Godzilla pro: $6999. Add 500 for shipping: $7500 = £6100 (GBPUSD=1.23). 20% VAT puts that at £7320 yet it retails for £8600 today!!
Who else in the Uk would do that nobody other than pinball heaven most other retail outlets only order what they have pre sold and maybe one for stock
Hld wouldn’t stop pestering stern about this and Gary agreed to then being a distributor told them they had to order 50 games payment in full today and they would ship in 2 weeks hld **** there pants said they would order 10 and gary just laughed them out of the door
If you where to order a stern game from the states ship it yourself pay all the duty s it would probably end up more than buying in the Uk and that s hoping it doesn’t come damaged and it works out of the box
Yes I do know that the pound to the dollar is much better now but on many occasions stern increases the prices and phil hasn’t passed that cost on
Plus there is no shortage of people paying there ridiculous prices so expect another price increase on the next title