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UK Pinball League 2024 - Feedback

lukewells said:
You are not addressing the fact that multiple people, myself included, quit playing the league after the first meet, because it was so overcrowded.
It is nothing to do with post Christmas popularity. The numbers dropped after the first meet because multiple of us deliberately did not participate in any more meets, after the first.

Why are "guest" players from another region allowed to participate at all? This should not be a thing given the overcrowding. There is no reason why people can't have social meets un-related, to the pinball league to allow people from other regions.
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So how many others do you know for sure that they quit after the first session last year because of overcrowding? It would be interesting to know as it would show whether this is a real problem or quite limited.

To put numbers on it from the results, 54 players in total attended at least one session last season. 8 of them only attended the first session, one was my son, who couldn't attend any of the other 5 meets as he was in Exeter, you quit, which leaves 6 others. i.e. how many of these 6 that only attended one session because they quit the league because it was overcrowded?

Here are the results that lists the 8 who attended just the first session last year:

UK Pinball League - Northern League 2024

UK Pinball League Table
www.pinballleague.uk www.pinballleague.uk
 
lukewells said:
You are not addressing the fact that multiple people, myself included, quit playing the league after the first meet, because it was so overcrowded.
It is nothing to do with post Christmas popularity. The numbers dropped after the first meet because multiple of us deliberately did not participate in any more meets, after the first.

Why are "guest" players from another region allowed to participate at all? This should not be a thing given the overcrowding. There is no reason why people can't have social meets un-related, to the pinball league to allow people from other regions.
Click to expand...
Guest players have always been part of the welcoming nature of the league, however restricting them could be part of a proposed solution.
I favour consulting with the individual hosts whether they can be allowed at their meet

I don't believe in excluding some players just because others would prefer to play in a less crowded environment
- who is to say who should be allowed and who excluded?
- I would probably favour regular attendees over occasional players
However I am sensitive to the requirements of hosts, and if one of them requested me to restrict numbers I would do so

Ultimately, if there are enough players and hosts to support two leagues in the North this could be done, even if they overlapped in coverage
 
I think what Luke is alluding to is that if the leagues were split into two (East and West) you wouldn't get the overcrowding and therefore no one would need to be excluded.
 
Asiapinball said:
So how many others do you know for sure that they quit after the first session last year because of overcrowding? It would be interesting to know as it would show whether this is a real problem or quite limited.

To put numbers on it from the results, 54 players in total attended at least one session last season. 8 of them only attended the first session, one was my son, who couldn't attend any of the other 5 meets as he was in Exeter, you quit, which leaves 6 others. i.e. how many of these 6 that only attended one session because they quit the league because it was overcrowded?

Here are the results that lists the 8 who attended just the first session last year:

UK Pinball League - Northern League 2024

UK Pinball League Table
www.pinballleague.uk www.pinballleague.uk
Click to expand...
Myself plus 4 other people that I know of that have directly told me so. It's up to them if they want to be named, but you can probably work it out from the list.
If we had continued to play as we have in previous years, that would put the average at 41
 
Arv said:
I think what Luke is alluding to is that if the leagues were split into two (East and West) you wouldn't get the overcrowding and therefore no one would need to be excluded.
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I explained my thoughts on that in the earlier post.

But it doesn't need to be East and West - that's an artificial distinction
Many of us in the "East" are virtually as close to meets in, say, Southport as some of you in the "West"
When we had meets in Manchester they were just down the road for me but some distance for many in the "West"

Also at the moment The "East" side would probably have a max of 3 hosts

If ,say, you and Luke set up Northern League 2 with some extra hosts who wanted to host smaller meets with maybe a max attendance, then those who wanted to attend less crowded meets (including from the "East" coud do so and if it ulimately ended up with most of those in the West migrating to your meets then that would be a fair and painless way of achieving a split
 
DAD said:
Guest players have always been part of the welcoming nature of the league, however restricting them could be part of a proposed solution.
I favour consulting with the individual hosts whether they can be allowed at their meet

I don't believe in excluding some players just because others would prefer to play in a less crowded environment
- who is to say who should be allowed and who excluded?
- I would probably favour regular attendees over occasional players
However I am sensitive to the requirements of hosts, and if one of them requested me to restrict numbers I would do so

Ultimately, if there are enough players and hosts to support two leagues in the North this could be done, even if they overlapped in coverage
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that there should be any sort of selection as to who should be allowed to play or not. I am saying that people who are already playing in another region as their main region, should not then also be playing as a "guest" in another region when that region has an overcrowding problem.

At the end of the day this is a WPPR completion, not a random social event. Why are people not able to meet up and play each others machines on a casual basis outside of the pinball league?

I can't think of any other situation where it would be normal for non-competitors to turn up and play in a WPPR event as a "guest", in every other competition, you are either a competitor or not
 
lukewells said:
I'm not saying that there should be any sort of selection as to who should be allowed to play or not. I am saying that people who are already playing in another region as their main region, should not then also be playing as a "guest" in another region when that region has an overcrowding problem.

At the end of the day this is a WPPR completion, not a random social event. Why are people not able to meet up and play each others machines on a casual basis outside of the pinball league?

I can't think of any other situation where it would be normal for non-competitors to turn up and play in a WPPR event as a "guest", in every other competition, you are either a competitor or not
Click to expand...

In the entire of the last season of the Northern League, there were only two guest players that attended Moose's meet - the sixth one (changing numbers from 31 33 'league players' to 33 35 including guests). The year prior was exactly the same, two guests all season attending Moose's meet.
You can certainly argue that attendance is increasing, but I don't think guest players are an issue personally.

Guest players are optionally shown in the results when the checkbox appears. If there is no checkbox, there were no guests. Example with guests : https://www.pinballleague.uk/leaguemeet.php?season=17&region=n&meet=6
 
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lukewells said:
I'm not saying that there should be any sort of selection as to who should be allowed to play or not. I am saying that people who are already playing in another region as their main region, should not then also be playing as a "guest" in another region when that region has an overcrowding problem.

At the end of the day this is a WPPR completion, not a random social event. Why are people not able to meet up and play each others machines on a casual basis outside of the pinball league?

I can't think of any other situation where it would be normal for non-competitors to turn up and play in a WPPR event as a "guest", in every other competition, you are either a competitor or not
Click to expand...
I would say there are hardly any players,if any, in the Northern league who do it for the WPPR points - I'm open to correction if anyone wants to respond

Most are not interested in points at all, and for those that are, the points on offer are derisory - they can probably earn more in a single external tournament (which tend to be quite crowded too) than spending 4 - 6 sundays at league meets

In my view one of the principal benefits and objectives of the league is it is a way of introducing new and novice players to the fun of competitive pinball, to allow them to try different games, to introduce them socially to other players and collectors, and to give them exposure to skilled players and hopefully encourage them to improve their skills and take part in more competitive events.
IMHO this is one reason why the Northern League is succesful - in certain other regions where it all became more serious it caused the regional league to fall apart
 
Wizcat said:
In the entire of the last season of the Northern League, there were only two guest players that attended Moose's meet - the sixth one (changing numbers from 31 'league players' to 33 including guests). The year prior was exactly the same, two guests all season attending Moose's meet.
You can certainly argue that attendance is increasing, but I don't think guest players are an issue personally.

Guest players are optionally shown in the results when the checkbox appears. If there is no checkbox, there were no guests. Example with guests : https://www.pinballleague.uk/leaguemeet.php?season=17&region=n&meet=6
Click to expand...

And if myself and the other 4 people who are being very quiet for some reason, had attended, then that would be 38
 
Wizcat said:
In the entire of the last season of the Northern League, there were only two guest players that attended Moose's meet - the sixth one (changing numbers from 31 'league players' to 33 including guests). The year prior was exactly the same, two guests all season attending Moose's meet.
You can certainly argue that attendance is increasing, but I don't think guest players are an issue personally.

Guest players are optionally shown in the results when the checkbox appears. If there is no checkbox, there were no guests. Example with guests : https://www.pinballleague.uk/leaguemeet.php?season=17&region=n&meet=6
Click to expand...
I agree Paul, there's not a major impact of guests
We've had them from the Midlands and Scottish leagues, but most seasons only at one meet
 
Anyway it's probably fine, if it's only me that thinks it's overcrowded out of the 54 players then you should just ignore me
 
DAD said:
I would say there are hardly any players,if any, in the Northern league who do it for the WPPR points - I'm open to correction if anyone wants to respond

Most are not interested in points at all, and for those that are, the points on offer are derisory - they can probably earn more in a single external tournament (which tend to be quite crowded too) than spending 4 - 6 sundays at league meets

In my view one of the principal benefits and objectives of the league is it is a way of introducing new and novice players to the fun of competitive pinball, to allow them to try different games, to introduce them socially to other players and collectors, and to give them exposure to skilled players and hopefully encourage them to improve their skills and take part in more competitive events.
IMHO this is one reason why the Northern League is successful - in certain other regions where it all became more serious it caused the regional league to fall apart
Click to expand...
The league itself does not meet criteria for WPPR, this is partly why that regional playoff BS has started. In fact the league pre dates WPPR IIRC. The league was created to promote pinball and improve the UK pool of players. I'd say its been more than a success!
 
DAD said:
No, I accept there are others, and I accept some meets are overcrowded, but I don't think the answer is a East/West split
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It’s Colin and I from the Scottish league that usually attend moose’s meet as guests , as there is plenty of room for him and we see it as a catch up etc but we have only done this twice and usually wait until it’s quieter in the late afternoon or don’t play at all as we are too busy talking 😀 - we usually combine it with a wee holiday to Blackpool etc - we have had the odd guest at the Scottish league too but we are not overcrowded and it’s usually because that person is on holiday here - however it’s more of a social event for us as the wrrp points were only given to the top two in our league ( our choice this year ) and a gateway to the pinball community - all leagues seem to be different . Scotland also has long travelling times for people but like David - we don’t have so many hosts so just got to get on with it until that changes then maybe we could have an east / west or a north / south - oh tne way we are all growing this could be an issue for us in the future 😀 bring it on 🤞
 
lukewells said:
Anyway it's probably fine, if it's only me that thinks it's overcrowded out of the 54 players then you should just ignore me
Click to expand...
Only just seen this thread update.

Myself, Daz B, Luke, Simon W and I think Arv all stopped going after the first over-crowded and time extended meet this year. I'm aware of at least one other and considering it comes up a lot in conversations, expect it's a higher number. Also think it's nothing to do with post Christmas pinball lull.

Do get the lack of of hosts issue though....
 
@lukewells I don't see anybody is ignoring you and there are 5 of you in total that quit because of the overcrowding so it is not just you.

I agree that it is overcrowded particularly at some venues but for me that is made up by all the positives that others have listed above.

But the practicalities of fixing the overcrowding are difficult.

Any form of limiting numbers in the league goes against the reasons league exists as @Epotech points out. And how and who chooses who else gets to attend? Past league performance, past attendance, earliest league attendance, lottery draw, wppr ranking, ability to host a meeting? All that goes against league values and potentially just turns it into a competitive and exclusive event.

Any split of the league will have its own practical issues not least finding 6 more venues and a new league organiser. Then there is still the issue that many may just want to remain with the current league so new league may fail to attract new members. I don't see how any new league in simiar geographic area could get up and running easily without cooperation of both leagues as they would really need to work together to balance the numbers and venues. I expect the only way to achieve a second Northern league successfully is to split the current league players with their mutual agreement into 2 groups; having a new league try to attract new members from an existing league would just fail.

I also believe that 2 leagues in a similar geographical area could have added benefits. Potentially less travel for participants if there was a broad geographical split but I expect there would always be an overlap; less overcrowding and even potential for off season tournaments between the leagues or even ranked tournaments (A B and C players from each league separate).

But the first step here is to find 6 new venues and a new organiser and until those are found it's all academic.
 
ailsaclunie said:
It’s Colin and I from the Scottish league that usually attend moose’s meet as guests , as there is plenty of room for him and we see it as a catch up etc but we have only done this twice and usually wait until it’s quieter in the late afternoon or don’t play at all as we are too busy talking 😀 - we usually combine it with a wee holiday to Blackpool etc - we have had the odd guest at the Scottish league too but we are not overcrowded and it’s usually because that person is on holiday here - however it’s more of a social event for us as the wrrp points were only given to the top two in our league ( our choice this year ) and a gateway to the pinball community - all leagues seem to be different . Scotland also has long travelling times for people but like David - we don’t have so many hosts so just got to get on with it until that changes then maybe we could have an east / west or a north / south - oh tne way we are all growing this could be an issue for us in the future 😀 bring it on 🤞
Click to expand...
For the record, if anyone, yourself obviously included, is having a holiday in Blackpool, drop me a message to say you are in Blackpool, and I will respond with "hey why don't you come over and play some pinball"
 
JMP said:
Only just seen this thread update.

Myself, Daz B, Luke, Simon W and I think Arv all stopped going after the first over-crowded and time extended meet this year. I'm aware of at least one other and considering it comes up a lot in conversations, expect it's a higher number. Also think it's nothing to do with post Christmas pinball lull.

Do get the lack of of hosts issue though....
Click to expand...
I expected that would be the 5 and I agree that there are probably more. I think @CHRIS B PINBALLS told me he didnt like the overcrowding at one of the events last year and i havent seen him attend since. Maybe he is another that would attend if less crowded?

For me I will continue to attend whether it is to an "overcrowded event" or either one of two new Northern leagues.

This all just demonstrates the huge success of the Northern League which I believe is as a result all that goes with it and not just playing competitive pinball. I have been to all 18 sessions over the past 3 years and played 203 games across 104 machines many of which I wouldn't have the opportunity to play elsewhere. Plus I have made loads of new friends along the way quite a few being new league members and had a lot of fun and laughs. I have also seen more of my brother @LannyLad and his partner @LannyLass in the last 2 years than I did in the previous 20 as a result of them also joining league. I am ever grateful to @DAD and all the other hosts for.making league happen.
 
Asiapinball said:
I expected that would be the 5 and I agree that there are probably more. I think @CHRIS B PINBALLS told me he didnt like the overcrowding at one of the events last year and i havent seen him attend since. Maybe he is another that would attend if less crowded?

For me I will continue to attend whether it is to an "overcrowded event" or either one of two new Northern leagues.

This all just demonstrates the huge success of the Northern League which I believe is as a result all that goes with it and not just playing competitive pinball. I have been to all 18 sessions over the past 3 years and played 203 games across 104 machines many of which I wouldn't have the opportunity to play elsewhere. Plus I have made loads of new friends along the way quite a few being new league members and had a lot of fun and laughs. I have also seen more of my brother @LannyLad and his partner @LannyLass in the last 2 years than I did in the previous 20 as a result of them also joining league. I am ever grateful to @DAD and all the other hosts for.making league happen.
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I must know you, just don't know the member name. Are you able to host? Appears to be a large gap in your area.
 
Asiapinball said:
But the first step here is to find 6 new venues and a new organiser and until those are found it's all academic.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of volunteering last year but not knowing where and how the divide would be, it may be unnecessary and/or too difficult using an East/West of the Pennines split. Have also been attending Lancs/Yorks league meets for over ten years and miss attending meets over them hills, as I have on some this year.

Who else have you got up in the North East?
 
JMP said:
I must know you, just don't know the member name. Are you able to host? Appears to be a large gap in your area.
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Yes we know each other. I came to your old place once a couple of years ago in the Summer plus again soon after for a league meet. Thanks for hosting both.

I have 9 machines set up but facing each other with just enough room to get the glass off. I could host a small meet and do have people over from.time to time but it's really cramped even with just 10 people in there. I'm hoping to get a bigger space sorted so that I can have all my machines set up and be able to host 40+ but that is a couple of years away. Once that us done I woild want to get a "Far North" league set but expect there will be a challenge getting enough hosts.

This is what I hope will become my pinball room. Planning is going in shortly. Its over 1000 square ft.
 

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JMP said:
I was thinking of volunteering last year but not knowing where and how the divide would be, it may be unnecessary and/or too difficult using an East/West of the Pennines split. Have also been attending Lancs/Yorks league meets for over ten years and miss attending meets over them hills, as I have on some this year.

Who else have you got up in the North East?
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There are a few of us in the NE and a few with 6+ machines that I know of but I still think we may struggle to find enough people willing to host in order to make a league. Plus the population up here is a lot less so there are only 2.5m in Northumberland Newcastle Durham Middlesborough area. This compares to 10 or 11 million in the current Northern League catchment area. So it's never going to be a huge league if it ever gets off the ground.

I know a few that don't travel from the NE to attend Northern League just because of the distances. 100 miles 2 hours minimum each way is typical probably more for meetings on West side.
 
I was the other one who attended Moose's last year. Got to say it was one of, if not the best league meet I have ever attended. I did ask David in advance and did feel super welcome, obviously Moose has an amazing place which does help. It would be a shame to remove the visiting guests, but I understand that regulars should take priority, esspecially when I was just there for fun.

I mean I'm just a fun guy, I don't take this stuff seriously 😂
 
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