UK Pinball League 2024 - Feedback

[Wizcat]

Name another sport in the world with a league format where someone who finished 1st in the season doesn't win the league and someone who finished 10th can

The football league? They have playoffs to determine teams that advance up to the next league at the end of each season. Granted it's not 10 deep, but still.
(Meh, probably not a good comparison on reflection)

 

[Epotech]

much as I hate football, doesnt the top go through and playoff for the next?

 

[AlanJ]

Football league is very different in that there are a limited number of spaces in each league. Maybe that should be a thing?

 

[Wizcat]

If you want to keep it with the end of season finals and not alienate some of the players, you need to change the format slightly. I suggest (if possible) the league ends with the finishing positions from the league season and those people are the representatives for the finals. Then have an end of season finals for the WPPR points

This is still supported. The Irish and Scottish leagues kept things 'the same' this year so that the region ends after six meets and those places are your finishing positions. Only the top two will advance to national finals though.

 

[Lecari]

You'll need to go into the pinball room(s) and bang some pans and tell the herd "grubs up".

Yep - we go round and announce lunch, tell everyone to stop playing, and slowly turn the games off to force people to stop playing. Otherwise people will just forget lunch exists. ;-) Then once most have finished I do the 'pre-league start announcement' - explain the format for any newbies, anything people need to know about the games (like 'the kickback on x doesn't work' or 'y is on 5 balls'), take money and hand out the sheets.

I have loved running the East Anglia league. We've had an amazing turn out each day, and people have all seemed to really enjoy it. I love that we've had quite a few people join throughout who are new to pinball - plus that we were able to mix it up with different games each session. I also organised fun comps like split flipper and an extra strikes comp on some of the days, for those who wanted to stay a bit later (and for hosts who wanted to!). This worked so well and I'll definitely do the same next year.

I'm so grateful to everyone who hosted - most were hosting their first ever event, and there would be no league at all without their help. £10 per event seemed very reasonable to me - we all pitched in and brought rice (or tried), curries, cheesecakes, people brought snacks. I think £8pp was fair for hosts (with hosts and U16s free), although several asked for the total to be donated to charity. I did always say that if someone could not afford the entry fee, or if this was a barrier, to let me know - but no one did, and to be honest I don't know of many other events where you'd pay £10 for a whole day including lunch.

I definitely think these events should stay as a fun, social event with a little competitiveness. For non-pinball people, I believe a full 8 hour comp is just too intimidating - but these meets at people's houses and with a laid back vibe were much more newbie-friendly, or perfect for those who just aren't into tournaments (not everyone is). And we have so many other tournaments that have 100%+ TGP that people can attend instead.

Our finals was held on a separate day, with balls plunged for George who couldn't make it, and we hosted the pin golf alongside as a fun side event - it worked really well and was a great celebration of the last 8 months or so. Equally I'm sure if the final 10 had been the final 10 (with no additional finals ladder) we would have hosted an extra event with just the Pin golf as a fun meet up anyway.

 

[cyberkryten]

Name another sport in the world with a league format where someone who finished 1st in the season doesn't win the league and someone who finished 10th can

Pretty much everything American: NBA Playoffs include half the teams in the league!

 

[KevM]

Got a question regarding league formats. Do most regions in the UK play a Matchplay format? I play in the Scottish one and we play all the games once, count up the scores and then the points get divided where you placed on each machine (not sure entirely what that format is called).
Curious to hear if any other region used a similar format and switched to matchplay and what the reception has been regarding that.

Also upping the fee from 5£ to 10£ sounds fair for the people hosting, hopefully that will help take a little bit of the strain off in case something does break or go wrong .
Scottish league was really fun this year with a great spread of games and venues. Thanks for organizing a great year @ailsaclunie !

 

[Jackpot]

Pretty much everything American: NBA Playoffs include half the teams in the league!

I also was about to mention this - it is actually the worst system ever. 30 NBA teams. 20 can actually win the playoffs and become the "World Champions" at the end .

Do agree with a lot of @mufcmufc's points though (+wayne mentioned), it does seem rough to have the hard work across 6 league days outweighed by a one off finals event. Exciting, but slightly imbalanced.

Leagues should be the less serious gateway for old and new folk to enjoy pinball and hopefully encourage the newbies to want more. I would agree with Arv that it can still seem cliquey at times but I think this is improving. @Lecari in particular (and others) have done a tremendous job in growing an entire new region of players with the relaxed and welcoming vibe.

I also wouldnt worry about the WPPR aspect overly, there are many other more WPPR focused comps that those inclined can partake in - the end wpprs split over 7/8 days of participation are never going to compare fairly to a wppr focused 1 or 2 day tournament. I think it is and should be more about the social side.

 

[thelab]

Just passing on feedback from a buddy:

- There should be consistent formats and qualifying criteria across all the regions

 

[Wizcat]

Just passing on feedback from a buddy:

- There should be consistent formats and qualifying criteria across all the regions

Ask Neil why he thinks that's important. Each region is pretty much it's own isolated entity. Standardisation would for sure make my life easier, with figuring out how to capture and query information in the database, but I expect that's not what he's considering

 

[David_Vi]

Just passing on feedback from a buddy:

- There should be consistent formats and qualifying criteria across all the regions

I believe the finals were supposed to be consistent just some regions either misunderstood or ignored it.

Eg. We plunged balls of players who couldn't make it whereas other regions pulled in reserves.

I think Paul tried to make it consistent but as it's the first year like this it was a bit of a struggle

 

[Lecari]

Got a question regarding league formats. Do most regions in the UK play a Matchplay format? I play in the Scottish one and we play all the games once, count up the scores and then the points get divided where you placed on each machine (not sure entirely what that format is called).
Curious to hear if any other region used a similar format and switched to matchplay and what the reception has been regarding that.

I think the only region that does matchplay / one-off comps is the south-west @Moonraker. The rest are the format you describe - 'best game'.

 

[Arv]

We plunged balls of players who couldn't make it whereas other regions pulled in reserves.

I think that should be a standard really and written into the rules if not already. Every player that is playing the finals has a "second" in case they can't make it.

 

[Matt Vince]

Name another sport in the world with a league format where someone who finished 1st in the season doesn't win the league and someone who finished 10th can

If you want to keep it with the end of season finals and not alienate some of the players, you need to change the format slightly. I suggest (if possible) the league ends with the finishing positions from the league season and those people are the representatives for the finals. Then have an end of season finals for the WPPR points

I have had this argument with Josh because in the UK we are not used to a league being the qualifier for a knock out round (perhaps with the exception of Rugby). I laid out a bunch of well reasoned arguments and examples but at the end of the day unless there is a head to head element of any given comp the IFPA will not endorse it.

The only issue with the old format from a WPPR's point of view is that the league portion wouldn't count as they are regional. Having a regional final is the only way to get points from the local meets. It is of course possible to have a regional final for the WPPR'S but still only put forward the top league players to the national final if people would prefer that?

 

[JT.]

Name another sport in the world with a league format where someone who finished 1st in the season doesn't win the league and someone who finished 10th can

If you want to keep it with the end of season finals and not alienate some of the players, you need to change the format slightly. I suggest (if possible) the league ends with the finishing positions from the league season and those people are the representatives for the finals. Then have an end of season finals for the WPPR points

Champions League?! Not the extreme of 10th place winning, but third place in one of the mini-leagues of 4 could end up entering the knockout phase and then winning the competition overall.

 

[JT.]

Pretty much everything American: NBA Playoffs include half the teams in the league!

Yeah, US soccer is a similar story. I think the Europa League is like this now too. TBH, I'm finding it harder to come up with example sports that involve regional competitions that don't use this format.

 

[Lecari]

I think that should be a standard really and written into the rules if not already. Every player that is playing the finals has a "second" in case they can't make it.

@Wizcat did ask everyone to plunge balls but not all leagues decided to do this.

 

[cyberkryten]

The reduction in size of the Pinfest League finals to only having two from each region does cause some issues with the formats.

If you don't have a finals then you're only going to have one of the top few players able to qualify - for most, there's no chance.

If you do have a regional finals, then someone who blitzes the qualifying could fail to make the finals, either because they had a bad day at the regionals or because they can't make the date of the regional (most dates aren't announced much in advanced and are in the summer when people have holidays booked)

One option to consider might be something like the play-offs system used in EFL (and also used for the IFPA Country spots): Top qualifier gets a guaranteed place and the next X people playoff for the second spot.

That said, I'd like to acknowledge that organising this sort of thing is a thankless task, everyone is happy to sound-off opinions but few are prepared to help or get involved. The key is to announce/plan as much as far in advance as possible because if the rules for the forthcoming year are announced so all can study them and any finals date is also put in the calendar well in advance then you limit the legitimacy of any complaints.

 

[Diw]

The New South Wales region was great (Biased obviously) Having defected a few times, between the regions, I would say this year it felt like it pulled many new folks in I’d never seen before. All but one of the meets was within 1.5hrs of my house, which has to be a first for me.

It was great having meets announced up front, and being able to plan them in early really help with the Mrs W’s schedule deconfliction. Kev did a great job as didd Craig with the scoring.

I’ve been absent from the league for a while as if I’m honest it felt like it was all getting a bit too serious and a lot of the fun went out of it for me.

This season felt really friendly and relaxed. For the meet I hosted we had my 6 machines plus one from Kev. With the numbers we had playing groups of 3/4 left enough people to chill out and chat to between games, whilst not having to rush to get through everything. Practice from 11, with a 12 start meant most people were on their way home by 5ish. Which being on the edge of the region meant people were generally home by 7, in time to get sorted for the following work week. I’m not interested in playing until 8 then having a slog home, it’s just not fun.

It also means where people have disrupted their house to fit in extra games, they have some time to tidy up and still chill out before bed.

Whilst I understand people don’t want to travel 3hrs to play 6 games, 1.5hrs doesn’t feel too bad. We’ve got far more big events across the country on a fairly regular basis where you can go and play a zillion games over 72hrs if you really wanted to, but it cuts out the social/casual players. Enabling people to host with fewer games means people are more likely to host as well.

The £10 in the region felt reasonable and allowed wiggle room for busy folks to just buy in some food platters from Morrisons if needs be.

 

[DRD]

Someone smart will know the answer to these ....

A. How many wprr points are available in the UK league ?

B. What is the total number of wprr points available in the UK in any given year ?

If you divide B by A - what's the answer

This would help illuminate whether it's worth making a complete mockery of the UK League in pursuit of wprr points

 

[roadshow16]

Firstly, I think it's really important to recognise that Paul is asking for feedback, which in itself is awesome, he wants to hear peoples opinions and thoughts (which clearly there are lots!) and clearly wants to improve things if possible. This is a thankless task, one that he's only doing to try and make the UK League better, to try and make the UK scene better, to get an understanding from people how this year went, reflect upon and hopefully improve. How awesome is that.

Secondly, it's clear that people attend the league for different reasons. Paul is listening to those reasons and will do the best he can to make it as fair a representation of the players as possible. It's clear that he is open to flexibility, putting trust in those regional coordinators to do what is right for their regions within the guidelines, whilst still trying to make it a cohesive league that culminates in a finals with some clear rules. Not an easy task, but Paul does it with open mindedness and with the goal of trying to make it the best that it can be.

Are there areas that it could be improved, I'm sure there are, I'm sure that Paul thinks the same too! But is he doing this with all the right intentions and for only one reason, to try and better the UK scene, absolutely.

So please, before bandying around statements like 'make a complete mockery of the UK league' think about how much time and effort has gone into this, for free, to solely try and do the best job possible for the enjoyment of those playing

 

[Wayne J]

Last season 32 players (from the six regions) were invited, but those 32 players played single player games on the machine bank, before the top 16 advanced to finals. So at best 16 players from across the regions had the opportunity to directly play against each other. Those sixteen players - 6 Northern, 3 Midlands, 3 South West, 2 London and 1 each from Scotland and Ireland.

Just to clarify - there were no single player games played in qualifying at all.
There were 8 groups of 4 made up with players from different regions, so you were 'forced' to play with people you probably wouldn't do usually.

The reason the qualifying was the same format as the league was 2 fold.
1. to maintain continuity of format.
2. it can easily accommodate any number of players turning up on the day. (If a format is set up for exactly 16 players - and 1 or 2 people can't make it for whatever reason, it kind of screws up the format - I've learned that from years of experience).
Having qualifiers in the morning not only means that players play their 5 games and can then leave, so not taking all morning; it all but guarantees the qualifiers will be there for the afternoon.
The finals last year consisted of just 5 x 4-player games - where all 16 players played each other exactly once each.

 

[Wayne J]

Using football or NBA basketball as examples of leagues where the winner doesn't automatically get declared the winner doesn't really work.

These are money generating competitions where TV companies want more games, and the sport wants more money from the TV companies - hence why the Champions League is no longer just the champions (and the champions of smaller countries don't even get guaranteed places) and is changing again this year to accommodate even more games, amd thus more money.

As soon as we as pinball players get paid for every game we play I'll be up for formats where the best of 37 is played for every comp.

 

[VeeMonroe]

I’ve been absent from the league for a while as if I’m honest it felt like it was all getting a bit too serious and a lot of the fun went out of it for me.

This season felt really friendly and relaxed. For the meet I hosted we had my 6 machines plus one from Kev. With the numbers we had playing groups of 3/4 left enough people to chill out and chat to between games, whilst not having to rush to get through everything. Practice from 11, with a 12 start meant most people were on their way home by 5ish. Which being on the edge of the region meant people were generally home by 7, in time to get sorted for the following work week. I’m not interested in playing until 8 then having a slog home, it’s just not fun.

It also means where people have disrupted their house to fit in extra games, they have some time to tidy up and still chill out before bed.

Whilst I understand people don’t want to travel 3hrs to play 6 games, 1.5hrs doesn’t feel too bad. We’ve got far more big events across the country on a fairly regular basis where you can go and play a zillion games over 72hrs if you really wanted to, but it cuts out the social/casual players. Enabling people to host with fewer games means people are more likely to host as well.

This is a big issue for me. I’m never going to be in a final. I enjoy hosting and attending league events for the social aspect. I also enjoy a relaxed atmosphere where I have time to chat and explore other people’s collections.

We also have two young kids who we currently can’t bring with us, and we have to rely on (elderly) grandparents or (specialist) childcare.

A move towards leagues being super-serious and much longer simply wouldn’t be fun for me.

 

[Diane B]

We had > 20 players at our meet this year. I don’t know about the other meets as I’ve been out of the competitive scene most of this year due to a broken shoulder and then a recurrence of my other health issues.

Having 8+ machines is better, but - yeah - we don’t currently qualify to host a meet. Our 8th machine is dismantled and, even if it were in operation, I like to have a spare as there’s a possibility a machine (Fish Tales, cough…) might breakdown in play.

Hi Vee, the email should have read 8+ machines where available.
Always grateful for all the hosts opening up their homes to run a meet.
Just trying to address some of the issues that have arisen in the past.

 

[Tucks]

If you want to keep it with the end of season finals and not alienate some of the players, you need to change the format slightly. I suggest (if possible) the league ends with the finishing positions from the league season and those people are the representatives for the finals. Then have an end of season finals for the WPPR points

That's what we used to have and hence my gripe on not making the last meet.

 

[ailsaclunie]

Thanks Paul - for the chance to give some feedback - as the coordinator for the Scottish league for the last ten years - my problem has always been finding hosts and then finding hosts with 4 or more machines . The rules which I found on the ukpinbalk league states that the minimum is 4 . We usually play every single machine that is available and we have new hosts this year who have had some amazing collections . Our players are from all over Scotland and can spend many hours travelling so we try and make it worth their while . 2 hours practice then like east Anglia and northern league - we stop all play and break for lunch . We then give introductions , news from the league and pinball world , then any info on the machines from the host then buddy up in groups to make sure newbies are included - after everyone has played their games - we continue playing and having fun until the host chucks us out regarding the top two going on to final or having a play off - I organised a vote and it was agreed the consistent top two should play in the final -
The other thing I want to mention that I did attend the national league finals at David Dutton’s house . It was a weekend event with a and b finals so at least 8 from each league could compete - giving even us a wee chance it also included the cup finals so while it suits most - the finals do not have to be a pinfest . We try to make it fun in our league and I do see it as a gateway and entry into our wonderful world but there is room for the more competitive players too .
Thanks Paul and previously Wayne keeping it all going .. Thankless and unpaid task especially having to fix all my IT mistakes

 

[Kate Rothwell-Jackson]

Hi Paul, sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this, life gets in the way sometimes.

I've been involved in the organisation of the league, one way or another, for several years, and my view of the UK league is that it is a great opportunity for people to be introduced to an element of competitive pinball, whilst remaining sociable, friendly and fairly laid back. The league should have a consistent format across regions and from season to season wherever possible, except to make improvements (such as scaling for changes in player numbers or to address a common problem). We shouldn't make changes just to satisfy the ever-changing IFPA WPPR calculations for points.

Regarding the introduction of the league finals, I would have preferred not to have them for the reasons stated above, however I do think that it could be possible to have a finals without it being detrimental to the overall league purpose and ethos. I agree with the suggestion made above that the overall positions for league tables and end of season trophies should be based on the results after 6 meets, and also the top players after 6 meets should be the ones to go forward to the national finals. Then, still hold "league tournaments" for WPPR points. Therefore, if you can't attend the finals, the only thing you are missing out on is WPPR points.

The main frustration for me was the lack of information and decision making. I think that if the regional finals are linked to who progresses to the UK league finals, then the format should be standard across regions and clearly defined at the start of the season. If it is like my suggestion, where each region is just holding a tournament with pre-defined players, then the format could be decided regionally, but should still be clearly defined at the start of the season.

Thankyou for all the work you do Paul and everyone else involved in League organisation; looking forward to getting stuck in to a new season soon!

 

[DAD]

I only became aware of this thread last night so my apologies for not commenting before

I'm not sure if people are still following it but I'm going to restrict my comments to responding to the issues raised re the Northern League

Attendances
I've looked back over the past few years at the numbers attending each meet which I've attached in the table below
These figures include visiting players
From this I would draw the following conclusions

1. Although the numbers have increased over the years, I'm not sure it is as dramatic as some may feel

2. The first meet of the year is traditionally the most popular as it normally comes immediately after Christmas (2022 was an anomaly because I experimented with holding the first meet in November).
I've normally held the first meet at mine since I have the space to accommodate higher numbers and many of my games are short playing
Despite the numbers and featuring 15 games to play, I found that most players had finished their league games by between 3 and 4pm
In 2024 Alan Jones kindly held the first meet to help me out and was rewarded by having our highest ever attendance! - I'll be happy to take back the first meet if this is going to prove problematic going forward
If we take the first meet out of the equation, peak attendance hasn't changed much over the years



I'm reluctant to cap numbers for a meet, but would do so if it was requested by the host

However I think numbers could be controlled by:
1. Temporarily halting allowing new members - anybody enquiring would be directed to a neighbouring region according to their location until natural attrition reduced the numbers at our meets
2. Not allowing visiting players unless previously agreed with the host

Splitting the Northern League
Although this sounds a logical step I think it is actually quite problematical for two reasons (I'm assuming the split would be between North East and North West)

1. Many on one side of the divide have good friends on the other side, and also enjoy playing their collections and would want to continue attending meets on the other side, so the reduction in attendance would be less
Meets would have to be arranged so they didn't clash, and these people would spend twice as many sundays attending meets as now (which may or may not be a bad thing!)

2. Twice the number of hosts would be needed. I've lost 3 good hosts in the North West recently and expect to only just about cover our 6 meets this season

My preference would be to keep the Northern League as it is for now, but control attendances as noted above

Number of games played at a meet

The reason I like to include up to 15 games at a league meet is that it means when you have that one awful game, it doesn't in itself destroy your result for the day
When I first increased the number of games included I did so with trepidation as I didn't know what it would do to finish times
In fact I found that most people were finishing no later, or even earlier than before, as they were not spending time waiting around for games to come available
It is still extremely rare for people to still have league games to play when the 6pm normal finish time for the meet arrives - I think most people seem to finish around 4 - 5
That said, with the advent of more long playing games in people's collections I recognise that this could become a problem and am open to reducing the maximum to, say, 10 games if that is what people would prefer
I accept that there is sometimes one game which holds everybody up - if that is identified beforehand it can be left out of the competitive play.

Start Time

There was a comment suggesting an earlier start time to meets.
In fact we already did this - the start time was brought forward from 12 to 11, and the league play start time from 2 to 1
Out of consideration for the hosts I don't think asking them to be ready even earlier is appropriate

Meeting Fees

The charge to attend a Northern League meet in the coming season will be increased to £10
This will be the first increase since since I took over running the Northern League in 2011
I did try to increase the charge a few years ago but was knocked back by hosts at the time who said they didn't need more
A host with an attendance of 36 adults of which 6 don't pay due to being hosts themselves will now get £255 to cover their costs, plus a further saving of £50 if they attend all the other meets without paying,

 

[lukewells]

1. Although the numbers have increased over the years, I'm not sure it is as dramatic as some may feel

2. The first meet of the year is traditionally the most popular as it normally comes immediately after Christmas (2022 was an anomaly because I experimented with holding the first meet in November).
I've normally held the first meet at mine since I have the space to accommodate higher numbers and many of my games are short playing
Despite the numbers and featuring 15 games to play, I found that most players had finished their league games by between 3 and 4pm
In 2024 Alan Jones kindly held the first meet to help me out and was rewarded by having our highest ever attendance! - I'll be happy to take back the first meet if this is going to prove problematic going forward
If we take the first meet out of the equation, peak attendance hasn't changed much over the years

View attachment 261306

However I think numbers could be controlled by:
1. Temporarily halting allowing new members - anybody enquiring would be directed to a neighbouring region according to their location until natural attrition reduced the numbers at our meets
2. Not allowing visiting players unless previously agreed with the host

Splitting the Northern League
Although this sounds a logical step I think it is actually quite problematical for two reasons (I'm assuming the split would be between North East and North West)

1. Many on one side of the divide have good friends on the other side, and also enjoy playing their collections and would want to continue attending meets on the other side, so the reduction in attendance would be less
Meets would have to be arranged so they didn't clash, and these people would spend twice as many sundays attending meets as now (which may or may not be a bad thing!)

You are not addressing the fact that multiple people, myself included, quit playing the league after the first meet, because it was so overcrowded.
It is nothing to do with post Christmas popularity. The numbers dropped after the first meet because multiple of us deliberately did not participate in any more meets, after the first.

Why are "guest" players from another region allowed to participate at all? This should not be a thing given the overcrowding. There is no reason why people can't have social meets un-related, to the pinball league to allow people from other regions.