The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread

[JustLikeMe]

I could be wrong, but I’ve heard it does work like that for the cornerstone games at least - Electrocoin have a minimum order for every single title split between Pro / Prem / LE. I’ve even heard that the payment is sent before they know what the title is.

I couldn’t say if it works the same way for the remasters / vaults / variant art editions and so on. Might well be different as Stern are making them without design costs and due to demand, as opposed to needing the security of a minimum order quantity for each brand new game they develop from scratch due to all the associated costs.

Does it make any sense to fill your warehouse full of crap themes nobody has ordered?

Now this is the interesting point - rumour is this is exactly what is happening in the States due to the minimum order quantities the distributors have to place and the lukewarm reception of some of the recent titles. It does make you question if a tipping point could be coming, and how Stern would manage that having moved to a new larger factory which I assume means they need to keep pumping out games.

@Will2.0 - what video was it you were talking about with the NIB pins piling up in a warehouse Stateside?

 

[Sako-TRG]

I watched a video…
It was a place called Automated I believe.
The US market may be subjected to this as u stated.
Full to the brim with every manufacturer including vending machines etc…

 

[Sako-TRG]

I couldn’t see PH adhering to this model, being the sole distributor for JJP.

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

That sounds like BS.
I reckon they have minimum orders on pro, prem,LE but not held to a specific title.
Even if this came from Electrocoin themselves, still wouldn’t believe it.
Heard all the stories about warehouse full of Beatles Gold - that turned out to be BS also.

The Beatles gold was certainly not bs you have no clue
It took over 4 years to get rid of those Beatles gold and they still have platinum and diamond lots of the golds where sold to operators in deals
As someone who regularly goes where most are stored there are jb60 multiple venom le multiple jw le multiple rush le multiple and other titles with pro and premium so it is not bs

 

[Sako-TRG]

The Beatles gold was certainly not bs you have no clue
It took over 4 years to get rid of those Beatles gold and they still have platinum and diamond lots of the golds where sold to operators in deals
As someone who regularly goes where most are stored there are jb60 multiple venom le multiple jw le multiple rush le multiple and other titles with pro and premium so it is not bs

As I said above when the rumour mill was stating loads of Gold then why was there none when I wanted one? Im not making it up!
If u are in the know Chris, can you then therefore tell us if Electrocoin are held to ransom with numbers from Stern?

 

[JustLikeMe]

As someone who regularly goes where most are stored there are jb60 multiple venom le multiple jw le multiple rush le multiple and other titles with pro and premium so it is not bs

Not long ago I was told a number for how many NIB machines they currently have in stock. Incredible really.

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

As I said above when the rumour mill was stating loads of Gold then why was there none when I wanted one? Im not making it up!
If u are in the know Chris, can you then therefore tell us if Electrocoin are held to ransom with numbers from Stern?

Yes they do have min order
It’s a massive gamble with the le if you don’t get enough you cannot fulfill orders if you get too many you and it’s a poor title you stuck with them
Electrocoin get slaughtered on here all the time but if it wasn’t for them there might not be any pins over here I suspect there is quarter of a million quids worth of le alone sat in the warehouse would any other pinball retailers in the uk do this I very much doubt it

 

[Marvello]

Jump to 1 hour 13 minutes.

 

[Fubar]

Yes they do have min order
It’s a massive gamble with the le if you don’t get enough you cannot fulfill orders if you get too many you and it’s a poor title you stuck with them
Electrocoin get slaughtered on here all the time but if it wasn’t for them there might not be any pins over here I suspect there is quarter of a million quids worth of le alone sat in the warehouse would any other pinball retailers in the uk do this I very much doubt it

Sure but that's only because Stern make up rules about minimum order quantities... In the end it benefits them both - the buyers end up paying the overheads as it's effectively a monopoly.

 

[Sako-TRG]

Yes they do have min order
It’s a massive gamble with the le if you don’t get enough you cannot fulfill orders if you get too many you and it’s a poor title you stuck with them
Electrocoin get slaughtered on here all the time but if it wasn’t for them there might not be any pins over here I suspect there is quarter of a million quids worth of le alone sat in the warehouse would any other pinball retailers in the uk do this I very much doubt it

So that’s around 17 LEs if we are talking retail.
Not too bad - have a look at the automated vid for comparison.

 

[JT.]

Yes they do have min order
It’s a massive gamble with the le if you don’t get enough you cannot fulfill orders if you get too many you and it’s a poor title you stuck with them
Electrocoin get slaughtered on here all the time but if it wasn’t for them there might not be any pins over here I suspect there is quarter of a million quids worth of le alone sat in the warehouse would any other pinball retailers in the uk do this I very much doubt it

I guess how risky it is for them depends on their payment terms with Stern - they might legally own and physically possess that stock, but not pay for it until later, e.g. when they've sold it on. Their last company accounts might be suggesting something like that - £1.2M of assets, but £3.2M debtors outstanding. I guess it could also be suggesting that they are sat on a warehouse or two full of old fully depreciated stock that they haven't yet paid for. Hard to know for sure from the Companies House accounts.

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

I guess how risky it is for them depends on their payment terms with Stern - they might legally own and physically possess that stock, but not pay for it until later, e.g. when they've sold it on. Their last company accounts might be suggesting something like that - £1.2M of assets, but £3.2M debtors outstanding. I guess it could also be suggesting that they are sat on a warehouse or two full of old fully depreciated stock that they haven't yet paid for. Hard to know for sure from the Companies House accounts.

stern won’t ship a node board till it’s fully paid for container is the same no pay no product s

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

So that’s around 17 LEs if we are talking retail.
Not too bad - have a look at the automated vid for comparison.

So that’s potentially quarter of a million sat there that’s going no where any time soon that’s not including pro and premium models in stock so it is pretty bad

 

[AlanJ]

The problem for electrocoin is shifting the old stock. If they sell it off cheaper, into a limited market, it damages the sales of new titles. If they sit on it and release it slowly, over years when prices are rising due to Inflation, they make more cash. They also get a tax advantage in the interim as they will depreciate the stock.

 

[JT.]

stern won’t ship a node board till it’s fully paid for container is the same no pay no product s

The alternative explanation of the accounts is that they're financially in quite a bit of trouble then

 

[Gonzo]

Electrocoin are sitting on a massive loss with Bond 60th.

Last time I spoke to them directly they were still holding 19 of what was a hugely overpriced game.

Reading between the lines, when a title doesn't work out too well they seem to swallow the costs and are able to do so because they sell and hire out so many of the casino and toy machines.

When I attended their open day I certainly didn't get the impression that pinball is a massive earner for them and I'd imagine it's sometimes subsidised by the gambling machines.

 

[Sako-TRG]

Maybe if they dropped their prices in line with Europe then they could shift some more boxes.

 

[Sako-TRG]

Electrocoin are sitting on a massive loss with Bond 60th.

Mmmmm…I was under the impression , the lions share came from the distro sale for this pin.. if you mean they couldn’t fleece 26k retail then U may be correct. If you believe they paid anywhere near that then that would be a bit naive.
Why else you think in US distros have dropped their price massively? Because they can.

 

[Sako-TRG]

Electrocoin are sitting on a massive loss with Bond 60th.

Last time I spoke to them directly they were still holding 19 of what was a hugely overpriced game.

Reading between the lines, when a title doesn't work out too well they seem to swallow the costs and are able to do so because they sell and hire out so many of the casino and toy machines.

When I attended their open day I certainly didn't get the impression that pinball is a massive earner for them and I'd imagine it's sometimes subsidised by the gambling machines.

If a business isn’t doing well….don’t you get rid of it?

 

[PinballNoobie]

Must be a reasonably profitable sideline. Especially if they only have to hold the stock. The Bond 60th and Beatles Platinum/Diamond units are probably a bugbear due to the individual cost of the units and the likelihood that they may never be sold at anything close to rrp or cost.

 

[Sako-TRG]

Must be a reasonably profitable sideline. Especially if they only have to hold the stock. The Bond 60th and Beatles Platinum/Diamond units are probably a bugbear due to the individual cost of the units and the likelihood that they may never be sold at anything close to rrp or cost.

Yeah, just storage costs waiting for the next mug

 

[JustLikeMe]

Mmmmm…really? I was under the impression , the lions share came from the distro sale for this pin.. if you mean they couldn’t fleece 26k retail then U may be correct. If you believe they paid anywhere near that then that would be a bit naive.
Why else you think in US distros have dropped their price massively? Because they can.

If what I heard re their cost price of Bond 60 is true, I think you’d be surprised. Stern didn’t make them as a high markup gift to distributors, they took the lion’s share themselves.

I’m fairly certain that those US distros lost a fair amount by dropping the prices so low. I imagine they did so because they figured it was inevitable and realised if they dropped their prices later they’d have to drop them more.

 

[JustLikeMe]

If a business isn’t doing well….don’t you get rid of it?

Pinball is a tiny fraction of their overall business, they make their money elsewhere. I think the reason they haven’t got rid of it is because John has a soft spot for pinball.

 

[Gonzo]

Mmmmm…I was under the impression , the lions share came from the distro sale for this pin.. if you mean they couldn’t fleece 26k retail then U may be correct. If you believe they paid anywhere near that then that would be a bit naive.

Mmmmm…I was under the impression , the lions share came from the distro sale for this pin.. if you mean they couldn’t fleece 26k retail then U may be correct. If you believe they paid anywhere near that then that would be a bit naive.
Why else you think in US distros have dropped their price massively? Because they can.

Erm . . . I'm not sure what you think I said, but I would prefer it if you didn't invent stuff, attribute it to me then call me naive because of something you've imagined I said.

I don't like your tone at all 'If you mean they couldn't fleece' . . . Eh? WTF have I got to do with it? You seem to be insinuating that I want EC to fleece people? It's not true and it's completely out of order for you to imply it.

The fact that you think that I believe Electrocoin paid close to RRP for the Bonds is preposterous.

I don't think it, didn't suggest it and anyway, it doesn't make any sort of business sense . . . You must think I'm an imbecile.

I've been to EC once and was informed by the Gaffer that they were sat on a ton of Bond 60ths. I thought the information might have added something to this conversation.

But for the record, I wish there wasn't a middle man and an extra charge on an already expensive hobby and have said so on multiple occasions.

But don't put words in my mouth please.

 

[Sako-TRG]

^^^^ Gonzo, not wanting to put words in your mouth buddy., think you’ve taking me wrong which is understandable having re-read what I wrote (blame ). I wasn’t having a dig at you……
I was speaking in general about the price of Bond 60th. It’s the way I was interpreting EC “being on a massive loss” thinking….
A. Is this because they paid high cost for the per unit Bond stock and cannot move it at close to RRP
Or
B. They paid low unit cost, expected to make a killing on sales that didn’t actually materialise for them.
I would probably bet on B.
Either way, they would be sitting with stock and out of pocket
Surely thoughts would be to:
1. Hold off and wait on mug punters to pay RRP
2. Drop the price and recoup costs and make less profit.
I remember hearing on grape vine, was like another Beatles Diamond / Platinum debacle but with the hope of selling out due to Elwin involvement
But all interesting points…and yeah we all wish pricing corrected.

 

[M4carp]

I used to love Electrocoin, me and a mate used to go to their showroom in Park Royal in the 80’s/90’s and play all the latest machines on freeplay.
Don’t remember any pins though but was more into video back then.

All new pins are over priced as well as many used so please close this thread as it’s

 

[octamus]

So is it cheaper then just to import from the us and convert them

 

[JustLikeMe]

I was speaking in general about the price of Bond 60th. It’s the way I was interpreting EC “being on a massive loss” thinking….
A. Is this because they paid high cost for the per unit Bond stock and cannot move it at close to RRP
Or
B. They paid low unit cost, expected to make a killing on sales that didn’t actually materialise for them.
I would probably bet on B.

It’s A.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

So is it cheaper then just to import from the us and convert them

It can be . I know folk who have done it from the the US and from Europe and saved a decent amount.
Depends on the deal of course , and you got the logistics , import issues , warranty to consider . So it’s not for everyone.

 

[kev a]

I retrospect it's staggering Stern thought they could sell 500 Bond 60ths at such a high price, perhaps a hundred or so, but at 500 it's less exclusive than CSI

Then again the market was full of post Covid FOMO and Elwin was being hailed as the best thing to happen to pinball since flippers.

Overall I think it's a good thing for us they got their fingers burned, the last thing we want is more lifestyle brand investor nonsense.