That is some money to fix the issues and make her good again so not a bad result. Pleased to hear it.
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Pinball sale dishonesty or laziness?
- Thread starter JMP
- Start date
OP
OP
Well kind of, quite arrogant though. Still feels he's responsible for bringing new machines into the country in his attempt to please (not all) everyone in the UK pinball scene. Very strange guy.... at least he admitted to not being able to fix machines...... No kidding !!
The money should put the machine right.
Its just you time and all the hours its going to take to get it in a reasonable condition.
Take a week off work looks like you are going to need it.
Its just you time and all the hours its going to take to get it in a reasonable condition.
Take a week off work looks like you are going to need it.
You will want it ready for ya meet??
OP
OP
I have a week off next week, supposed to be for DIY and decorating but some days are being taken out for this, just trying to get all parts in advance asap. Yes, ideally would like to have it nice and working for meet in June so Daz can get his 'hit the crate' fix, heh.
Yes Hove. He already feels I've 'damaged' his reputation mentioning Brighton....
. I am concerned about anyone else being caught out and not sure whether to link to Ebay ID etc. but to give a soft-**** view on it, have been told since that it's 'hit and miss' with his machines and simply recommend viewing which he's happy to provide. It appears a lot of this is down to lack of knowledge and/or technical experience.... I'm no great tech either but some things were obvious (like a broken ramp, non-working flippers, pop bumper and test fault report on boot for example).
Have spent the refund already.... and plenty to go yet.
Yes Hove. He already feels I've 'damaged' his reputation mentioning Brighton....
. I am concerned about anyone else being caught out and not sure whether to link to Ebay ID etc. but to give a soft-**** view on it, have been told since that it's 'hit and miss' with his machines and simply recommend viewing which he's happy to provide. It appears a lot of this is down to lack of knowledge and/or technical experience.... I'm no great tech either but some things were obvious (like a broken ramp, non-working flippers, pop bumper and test fault report on boot for example).Have spent the refund already.... and plenty to go yet.
Not sure if its down to lack of understanding. Looked at buying a SWT off him and pointed out a few issues, namely a big chunk out of the ramp. It then went up on eBay with no mention of anything I had pointed out.
Cheers Tony
Cheers Tony
I have a week off next week, supposed to be for DIY and decorating but some days are being taken out for this, just trying to get all parts in advance asap. Yes, ideally would like to have it nice and working for meet in June so Daz can get his 'hit the crate' fix, heh. Only joking mate.
Yes Hove. He already feels I've 'damaged' his reputation mentioning Brighton....
Have spent the refund already.... and plenty to go yet.
so far everything i've read sounds like more dishonesty than laziness to me.
i know who it is and will blacklist his name in ebay so i don't ever accidentally buy off him. he has a cheek though, to suggest you damaged his reputation by saying he is from Brighton, as if this somehow means some people may think it is him we are discussing: IT IS! WE ARE ON TO YOU!
he damaged his own reputation by misrepresenting dirty old games as perfect ones, so they go for perfect game prices. i know he is reading this thread, so i will suggest that he count himself extremely lucky this time not to have been forced to take it back by ebay or the small claims court. he needs to please start being more honest in his auctions, as next time he will definitely get named and shamed. we already know the 350 isn't gonna cover the fixes.
i know who it is and will blacklist his name in ebay so i don't ever accidentally buy off him. he has a cheek though, to suggest you damaged his reputation by saying he is from Brighton, as if this somehow means some people may think it is him we are discussing: IT IS! WE ARE ON TO YOU!
he damaged his own reputation by misrepresenting dirty old games as perfect ones, so they go for perfect game prices. i know he is reading this thread, so i will suggest that he count himself extremely lucky this time not to have been forced to take it back by ebay or the small claims court. he needs to please start being more honest in his auctions, as next time he will definitely get named and shamed. we already know the 350 isn't gonna cover the fixes.
Can someone PM me who it is please so I don't fall into this trap.
FWIW you can't block sellers only bidders...
FWIW you can't block sellers only bidders...
Just don't bid on any pinball items from Hove - in addition to any items from Blackpool...
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- Jul 21, 2011
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The trouble is one man's mint is another man's dog! Without viewing in person or totally trusting a friend's judgement there is a risk as even good photos can hide a fair few things,
I know a few people who live in Brighton and have made a guess!
I know a few people who live in Brighton and have made a guess!
This chap doesn't live in Brighton, he lives in Hove. Brighton is considered by some (such as the people who live in Hove) to be a cheaper place than Hove and they are insulted by the suggestion they live in the cheap part not the posh part.
This is is not our boy from the Brighton area so lets not stop buying their stuff or their houses will explode if they can never sell things.
This is is not our boy from the Brighton area so lets not stop buying their stuff or their houses will explode if they can never sell things.
Fairly large grey area here. Some cowboys deserve pointing out. I remember someone on here telling me how they bought a "fully working" machine and discovered on delivery that the boards were missing
However, good condition means so many things to so many people. Personally I don't care that much about the cab etc but to others it's crucial. Never had a machine yet that didn't need something fixed within days of arriving. In an ideal world I'd like to see the machine and play it before buying it but I've not done this with a single machine I've bought. The logistics of hiring a van to get there and the grief I'd get for the "day out" from my wife simply makes it unviable. Yes I've been stung a bit but hey, life's too short...
If I want a mint machine then I'd have to up my budget and go for a NIB or buy from someone I knew.
So saying I'd like to think if you bought a total dog then the seller would be willing to refund the cash if the machine is returned. If not then they can hardly complain about people moaning and damaging their reputation (this is a hypothetical situation and not aimed at anyone).
Still feel guilty about the playfield on the Hook that I sold a few years back when I think back about it.
However, good condition means so many things to so many people. Personally I don't care that much about the cab etc but to others it's crucial. Never had a machine yet that didn't need something fixed within days of arriving. In an ideal world I'd like to see the machine and play it before buying it but I've not done this with a single machine I've bought. The logistics of hiring a van to get there and the grief I'd get for the "day out" from my wife simply makes it unviable. Yes I've been stung a bit but hey, life's too short...
If I want a mint machine then I'd have to up my budget and go for a NIB or buy from someone I knew.
So saying I'd like to think if you bought a total dog then the seller would be willing to refund the cash if the machine is returned. If not then they can hardly complain about people moaning and damaging their reputation (this is a hypothetical situation and not aimed at anyone).
Still feel guilty about the playfield on the Hook that I sold a few years back when I think back about it.
I was quite shocked when I checked this machine over, considering that this was a "top money" priced machine.
My hands were black from just touching things on the top side of the playfield, the rubbers were all near peeling off and mismatched (mixture of colours), barely any bulbs worked, and were all covered in a thick layer of black dust. The seller has not even borrowed PP's "dirty rag" to give the machine a quick wipe over. Then there were the various damaged items that that JMP has already listed.
Not lets say for the sake of fairness, that the condition of a machine is subjective and one man's mint condition might be another mans rough condition machine....
I was particularly concerned about the state of the electrics in the machine. It was simply NOT SAFE to be plugged into the mains at all, not by a long shot. The mains lead was cut and patched up very very badly in multiple places with losely stuck on electrical tape and was a shock hazard just waiting to happen. The seriousness of the electrical DANGER is then amplified 10 fold because ALL of the ground strap and earth points have been cut up into tiny little pieces. I cannot even for a second imagine why this has been done as there is no logical explanation as to why even the most clueless person would do this, but basically, this is a machine with exposed severed mains wiring AND NO EARTH! The potential risk of one of the many exposed metal parts of this machine becoming live is very high in this machine.
Next lets look at the flippers. The flippers do not work and neither have connected EOS switches (How does this machine even begin to be described as fully working?) On one side the EOS wires have been cut from the switch and on the other side there is no switch and there are no wires. While the return line would most likely just jumper over from the return on the other EOS switch , I could not find the switch drive for the other EOS switch in the loom at all, so it looks like it has been pulled out all the way back from the Fliptronic board and a new wire is going to need to be run through.
Then we have the illumination. Firstly the GI is suffering from not only the usual burnt connectors, but also someone has previously soldered wires onto the header pins directly, then cut them off, then tried to just jam some molex connectors over the top of the soldered wires, which was never going to happen and they are making no contact at all, so there is no upper GI and the rest of the GI is questionable. Then with the insert lamps, there are so many bulbs out, I can't tell without investigating further whether there is actually a serious lamp matrix problem of it is just needs all of the bulbs replacing.
Next up is the bodge wires between the boards. Clearly there is some sort of voltage drop issue due to bad condition connectors on the power rails, but hey, instead of fixing those, they have had jumper wires soldered directly onto the boards (between boards) so that you can't even remove a board from the machine now without desoldering wires.
Then let's talk about the leaking batteries. What sort of the f****ng pinball trader sells a machine that actually has leaking batteries in it? Yeah let's flip a cab for a few hundred quid profit, without even giving the machine a wipe with a cloth, checking it actually works OR REMOVING THE DAMN LEAKING BATTERIES
I don't mind the people that charge a premium for properly restored pinball machines, when they actually know what they are doing, and are adding some value to the machine by the work they are doing, but flipping a faulty and dangerous machine just for the money money money really makes my blood boil. It seems like everyone is a pinball trader these days.
I appreciate that there are some decent people out there in the community that have offered to help JMP out. I myself am going to get the electronics back into a decent state for him. Hopefully we can make this into a nice fully working and SAFE machine in time for the next league meet, and we can all enjoy it, no thanks to the seller.
My hands were black from just touching things on the top side of the playfield, the rubbers were all near peeling off and mismatched (mixture of colours), barely any bulbs worked, and were all covered in a thick layer of black dust. The seller has not even borrowed PP's "dirty rag" to give the machine a quick wipe over. Then there were the various damaged items that that JMP has already listed.
Not lets say for the sake of fairness, that the condition of a machine is subjective and one man's mint condition might be another mans rough condition machine....
I was particularly concerned about the state of the electrics in the machine. It was simply NOT SAFE to be plugged into the mains at all, not by a long shot. The mains lead was cut and patched up very very badly in multiple places with losely stuck on electrical tape and was a shock hazard just waiting to happen. The seriousness of the electrical DANGER is then amplified 10 fold because ALL of the ground strap and earth points have been cut up into tiny little pieces. I cannot even for a second imagine why this has been done as there is no logical explanation as to why even the most clueless person would do this, but basically, this is a machine with exposed severed mains wiring AND NO EARTH! The potential risk of one of the many exposed metal parts of this machine becoming live is very high in this machine.
Next lets look at the flippers. The flippers do not work and neither have connected EOS switches (How does this machine even begin to be described as fully working?) On one side the EOS wires have been cut from the switch and on the other side there is no switch and there are no wires. While the return line would most likely just jumper over from the return on the other EOS switch , I could not find the switch drive for the other EOS switch in the loom at all, so it looks like it has been pulled out all the way back from the Fliptronic board and a new wire is going to need to be run through.
Then we have the illumination. Firstly the GI is suffering from not only the usual burnt connectors, but also someone has previously soldered wires onto the header pins directly, then cut them off, then tried to just jam some molex connectors over the top of the soldered wires, which was never going to happen and they are making no contact at all, so there is no upper GI and the rest of the GI is questionable. Then with the insert lamps, there are so many bulbs out, I can't tell without investigating further whether there is actually a serious lamp matrix problem of it is just needs all of the bulbs replacing.
Next up is the bodge wires between the boards. Clearly there is some sort of voltage drop issue due to bad condition connectors on the power rails, but hey, instead of fixing those, they have had jumper wires soldered directly onto the boards (between boards) so that you can't even remove a board from the machine now without desoldering wires.
Then let's talk about the leaking batteries. What sort of the f****ng pinball trader sells a machine that actually has leaking batteries in it? Yeah let's flip a cab for a few hundred quid profit, without even giving the machine a wipe with a cloth, checking it actually works OR REMOVING THE DAMN LEAKING BATTERIES
I don't mind the people that charge a premium for properly restored pinball machines, when they actually know what they are doing, and are adding some value to the machine by the work they are doing, but flipping a faulty and dangerous machine just for the money money money really makes my blood boil. It seems like everyone is a pinball trader these days.
I appreciate that there are some decent people out there in the community that have offered to help JMP out. I myself am going to get the electronics back into a decent state for him. Hopefully we can make this into a nice fully working and SAFE machine in time for the next league meet, and we can all enjoy it, no thanks to the seller.
Err yeah .... before this Brighton Witch Hunt gathers any more pace can I just point out that the South Coast Pinball Mafia are a top bunch
( on the whole, Will B is still on probation 
)
Why can't anyone say this is devon0205 ebay ID and his name is Tobin, he's a dealer who brings his machines in from Poland??
To be fair, he's put you half right but I can see from the pics that the screw heads and nuts are corroded and it **looks** like the ramp may be broken. He may well not have had a good look at it bar the playfield and cab (which i guess are ok) and you do miss things even when experienced. I think from your point, it should be a case of asking for much better pics in future or asking for known areas of wear to check on X machine if buying via pics OR get a fellow pinhead to nip round for you
To be fair, he's put you half right but I can see from the pics that the screw heads and nuts are corroded and it **looks** like the ramp may be broken. He may well not have had a good look at it bar the playfield and cab (which i guess are ok) and you do miss things even when experienced. I think from your point, it should be a case of asking for much better pics in future or asking for known areas of wear to check on X machine if buying via pics OR get a fellow pinhead to nip round for you
OP
OP
Thanks all. At the request of many and to avoid any mis-identified witch hunt, the EBay ID is devon020305, got a Frankenstein on there at the moment. Despite all the aggro, I don't think it's appropriate to directly name and shame private details (yeah call me too soft) publicly, although would have considered it if had no further response.
Extract from UK Electrical Safety regulations 1994: on selling second hand electrical items :-
Selling safe second-hand electrical goods
Sellers of second-hand electrical goods are responsible for ensuring the goods meet legal safety requirements and sellers may be liable to pay compensation if they sell unsafe goods and they cause injury or damage. If the equipment you are selling complies with an acceptable standard - for example, a British/European Standard - it will normally meet safety requirements.
Distributors and retailers, including second-hand dealers and auctions, must only sell appliances that are correctly fitted with an approved plug with sleeved neutral and live pins and the correct fuse. Electric fires for use in the home must have a fireguard that meets British Standards, or the European equivalent.
If you sell second-hand electrical goods which are unsafe or incorrectly labelled and you haven't taken reasonable precautions to avoid this, you may be prosecuted.
Selling safe second-hand electrical goods
Sellers of second-hand electrical goods are responsible for ensuring the goods meet legal safety requirements and sellers may be liable to pay compensation if they sell unsafe goods and they cause injury or damage. If the equipment you are selling complies with an acceptable standard - for example, a British/European Standard - it will normally meet safety requirements.
Distributors and retailers, including second-hand dealers and auctions, must only sell appliances that are correctly fitted with an approved plug with sleeved neutral and live pins and the correct fuse. Electric fires for use in the home must have a fireguard that meets British Standards, or the European equivalent.
If you sell second-hand electrical goods which are unsafe or incorrectly labelled and you haven't taken reasonable precautions to avoid this, you may be prosecuted.
OP
OP
Crossed posts.
To be fair, he's put you half right but I can see from the pics that the screw heads and nuts are corroded and it **looks** like the ramp may be broken. He may well not have had a good look at it bar the playfield and cab (which i guess are ok) and you do miss things even when experienced. I think from your point, it should be a case of asking for much better pics in future or asking for known areas of wear to check on X machine if buying via pics OR get a fellow pinhead to nip round for you
Above are only a selection of pics he sent through and all of them showed a very nice machine because the playfield and cab are nice. I'll admit, looking back now there are a few, very minor signs that could have told me things maybe aren't as great, some dirty rubbers for example but nothing gave me the idea it could be as bad as it was. He dropped the names of locals in the South that I knew of and someone up North I know well who has bought a machine previously and was happy, so had little reason to doubt differently. A very good exchange of emails went back and forth for some days too, not the brief, basic info you sometimes get from those trying to hide stuff. Put it this way, the warning signs were not there, I'm no expert but not 'that' green either but this has told me not to trust anyone I've not dealt with before and look before buying, whatever the distance.
I've picked up a few from around the M25 in the past but this one was too far, too soon as often have to work with long distance travel too.
For info, my last three machines were:
- Whitewater bought on Ebay as good and fully working. Picked up personally in London area and was a dog, with loads not disclosed. Prepared to walk away until offered at £350 less and so took as a project (rather than travel all that way and come back with nothing) which is now complete and looking good.
- Indy 500 bought via the group here as good and working but needing a clean. Arrived with switches broken (including the hard to find LED stand up target) leaking batteries, damaged/non working speaker and other stuff on which I asked for help here in the tech section. Seller very apologetic and refunded part of the cost to make right. All good in the end and no hard feelings on either side.
With this third happening like it did, you'll understand my first post at the top of this thread. Bad luck in threes? Or maybe I just don't suss them out well enough beforehand. Well if the latter, would like to think I'm twice as wise after it all and it's a great thing there are decent people in here to help out and give a hand when **** happens.
A group member just got completely scammed on a Bullwinkle, £600 
, Gumtree again, maybe it would be a good to start a thread (sticky) warning of the current scams and the do's & dont’s, bank transfer to complete strangers is a no no, Western Union, MoneyGram (got nailed on that one years ago on ebay pre paypal, Romanian account hijackers) even more reason to view and pay on collection methinks .
, Gumtree again, maybe it would be a good to start a thread (sticky) warning of the current scams and the do's & dont’s, bank transfer to complete strangers is a no no, Western Union, MoneyGram (got nailed on that one years ago on ebay pre paypal, Romanian account hijackers) even more reason to view and pay on collection methinks .
I will now be keeping a keen eye on any pins listed from Hove & Blackpool in a bid to nab a bargain
Rocky and bullwinkle for £600? This isnt the one that was on ebay is it?
A group member just got completely scammed on a Bullwinkle, £600
After both this and recent posts on the Yahoo group, i will be doing this tomorrow, along with specific requirements for you to post items for sale on here. Whilst we cannot be responsible for sales through here for obvious reasons, I'm damn sure I'm gonna do what i can to safeguard both sellers and buyers as well as possible here...
Paul
Buyer purchased off Gumtree, seller also had a T2 advertised and had done his research to aid the scam, not sure if it was also listed on the bay but it was a Gumtree transaction in this case.
Good call Chief
I know that sometimes, within a group we grow trust for each other and then just take things at face value. A quick "who wants my AFM?", when it is a known machine, is often easiest. Any successful changes that Paul can make to this forum, would require all of us to sell our machines with a certain amount of information, with pictures of various parts of the machine and good ones with detail.
It will at least mean that any missed damage, should be visible in a picture. Credit dots would be noticeable and should be explained but switches do break in transit so a seller can't predict everything. However, switches don't go missing and wire to them get cut etc.
If it is a project machine then list it as such, if it has come into the country with no further work we should say that. I bought an IJ from Replica on that sort of description and have been very happy every time I have found a part that is far better than my expectations (I would add that I wanted a project to do up).
Finally, we can often get a local person, who we independently trust to go and view a machine. Maybe we should do a little more of that to weed out some bad descriptions.
It will at least mean that any missed damage, should be visible in a picture. Credit dots would be noticeable and should be explained but switches do break in transit so a seller can't predict everything. However, switches don't go missing and wire to them get cut etc.
If it is a project machine then list it as such, if it has come into the country with no further work we should say that. I bought an IJ from Replica on that sort of description and have been very happy every time I have found a part that is far better than my expectations (I would add that I wanted a project to do up).
Finally, we can often get a local person, who we independently trust to go and view a machine. Maybe we should do a little more of that to weed out some bad descriptions.
As long as I have been in the scene ...the Dealers vs Pin Community wars have rumbled on .
Dealers are involved with pinball to make money. To do so ,they have to source a machine and then sell it at a decent profit. Now if the machine is in good condition no problem. However it is less and less likely you can source a 'good' machine for peanuts. So chances are the machine will need time and money to make it presentable. But if you invest time and money, the profit begins to disappear. And if you start describing every fault on a game then people are unlikely to buy it at the price you need them to. So what do you do ? Well, we all know the answer to that.
Now the Pin Community .....I'm gonna generalise a bit here .....The people who frequent the pin forums/boards/go to meets, shows/refurb games etc ....us lot. We are 'into' pinball machines in a way Joe Punter dropping a £1 in a game in a pub isn't. We stress about worn rubbers, ball tracks, cracks in ramps , one line out on a dmd, rusty screws....they bother us. They keep us awake at night We spend countless hours and money on 'our' games eliminating all these evils. These games often change hands between us and we get used to games being of a certain standard.
So when one of 'us' strays into the world of Mr Dealer ...it really isn't a surprise that it ends in tears.
Dealers are involved with pinball to make money. To do so ,they have to source a machine and then sell it at a decent profit. Now if the machine is in good condition no problem. However it is less and less likely you can source a 'good' machine for peanuts. So chances are the machine will need time and money to make it presentable. But if you invest time and money, the profit begins to disappear. And if you start describing every fault on a game then people are unlikely to buy it at the price you need them to. So what do you do ?
Well, we all know the answer to that.Now the Pin Community .....I'm gonna generalise a bit here .....The people who frequent the pin forums/boards/go to meets, shows/refurb games etc ....us lot. We are 'into' pinball machines in a way Joe Punter dropping a £1 in a game in a pub isn't. We stress about worn rubbers, ball tracks, cracks in ramps , one line out on a dmd, rusty screws....they bother us. They keep us awake at night
We spend countless hours and money on 'our' games eliminating all these evils. These games often change hands between us and we get used to games being of a certain standard.So when one of 'us' strays into the world of Mr Dealer ...it really isn't a surprise that it ends in tears.
I thought that the guy who got stung via Gumtree was buying a Rocky (Gottlieb) table and not Rocky and Bullwinkle?
The R&B that was on eBay a week or so ago ended up going to me, but only after I posted on here to check the situation with it. In that case it was being sold by Matt Adams and Dan very helpfully gave me some background on the machine. Matt was totally up front about the issues the table has and specifically told me that it wasn't a 'Rolls Royce', but to be fair I wouldn't expect it to be at the price I paid for it.
Threads like this are extremely helpful though. I'm a total newbie to Pinball so it's great to have some pointers as to things to look out for.
The R&B that was on eBay a week or so ago ended up going to me, but only after I posted on here to check the situation with it. In that case it was being sold by Matt Adams and Dan very helpfully gave me some background on the machine. Matt was totally up front about the issues the table has and specifically told me that it wasn't a 'Rolls Royce', but to be fair I wouldn't expect it to be at the price I paid for it.
Threads like this are extremely helpful though. I'm a total newbie to Pinball so it's great to have some pointers as to things to look out for.
It may be a Rocky not R&B (my mistake), unfortunately the sad fact remains that someone has ended up £600 out of pocket with nothing to show for it but a head full of grief, what makes it worse is that when the right machine does come along it will feel like you are paying double for it and may even deter the purchase of a genuine example period due to the lingering bad taste, there are some naughty fookers out there.