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is the market unusually sleepy?

JAG555 said:
I think we are heading to a period soon when people will have to sell either release funds or get space.
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It depends because there are multiple different markets. There’s not actually an ‘upgrade ramp’ whereby everyone with a Firepower wants to sell to buy JJP Elton John because it’s the latest Steve Ritchie! Having done league events at people’s houses, etc. collectors tend to collect different periods. Thus, if you’re an 80s collector who wants a Fathom, nothing happening in the NIB part of the market actually affects you.

There are a group of people who were buying NIB Sterns and flipping them again to get the latest Stern, and that part of the market has been nuked by some combination of Stern’s greed and a flood of new titles (overproduction). I suspect those people started by flipping older pins as they grew in value and now those pins have gone and it doesn’t work anymore.

On the releasing space, again, it doesn’t have to happen. I arrived new in 2021 and I own a bunch of pins I’m happy with, and we have about one space that’s ‘flexible’ right now. If Stern, JJP, Dutch Pinball, etc. never again produce anything better than Godzilla or JP2 or Elton John, then I won’t buy any more NIB pins. The NIB market collapses for me at that point, at least temporarily.

JAG555 said:
Like I said in my sales post, I had loads of trade offers, but only one of these games was officially up for sale.
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I saw your sales post. That’s why I put my Centaur up for trade. I thought I’d lose a tonne of money trying to sell and buy again, because people are overvaluing some pins and undervaluing others, and I didn’t want an empty space anyhow.

JAG555 said:
Saying that I think good quality WilliamS DMD games would sell, but these are rarely listed.
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Yes, because good pins stay long-term in collections. Bad pins get swapped out fast.
 
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lukewells said:
IT'S
THE
PRICES!

Seriously

A quick glace at the unsold machines and there are multiple that are overpriced by THOUSANDS. We are not talking about machines that are a couple of hundred quid above market rate, it is thousands. Some are priced to never ever sell

Before "the insane times" a used modern pin would sell for 50-75% of it's new in box price, but now we have people trying to sell 4-5 year old pins for 90-120% of their new in box price.

There are a very small number of either the most recent or most popular games, where you can get 90%+ of your money back when selling it on, but this is just not the case in the real world for most games.
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Yes, basically. And my experience is it’s largely at the second-hand Spike 2 Stern end of the market. People are paying inflated NIB prices and expecting to lose £500 on resale, regardless of the quality of the gameplay.
 
VeeMonroe said:
The TAF might move on eBay. It's the classic "new buyer who has nostalgia" title and people looking for their first pin don't know what to watch out for, condition-wise.

If you play pinball regularly, Twiglet Zone is more interesting, and is priced similar to a Spike 2 Stern Pro because it's similarly good.

On here, there was a Monster Bash and an MMr sat for ages. People are afraid of overpaying, the market falling further, and feeling ripped off - as others have said - and that's across the board, for most titles.
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Yeah there are more eyeballs there. It's no different there though, I'm picking up stuff less than 1/4 what people were paying in 2022/23 on a wim it comes back in a few years.

TZ is miles better, TAF is a collectable because you wouldn't pay that to extract fun out of it, there's no fun in that game after 10 plays.
 
lukewells said:
IT'S
THE
PRICES!

Seriously

A quick glace at the unsold machines and there are multiple that are overpriced by THOUSANDS. We are not talking about machines that are a couple of hundred quid above market rate, it is thousands. Some are priced to never ever sell

Before "the insane times" a used modern pin would sell for 50-75% of it's new in box price, but now we have people trying to sell 4-5 year old pins for 90-120% of their new in box price.

There are a very small number of either the most recent or most popular games, where you can get 90%+ of your money back when selling it on, but this is just not the case in the real world for most games.


Quite recently a certain Stern pro was being advertised on here (unsold after several months) at a very high price. I checked out what they were selling for on Pinside and the machine was basically £3000 over-priced compared to what they were actually changing hands for in the US. Sure you can charge a small premium over US prices on some games as they tend to cost more to buy here in the first place, but when the difference is £3000, you could literally buy one on pinside, ship it and pay the VAT and still save money
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I disagree a bit that it’s just prices, although that of course plays some part. I will only talk about my machine, but mine was £200 under what I paid for it in May this year, off of here. It was a fully loaded Pro, with everything you could want on a Pro, yet I didn’t even have any offers on here. It sold through Facebook.

It’s not just the prices, it also seems to be unwillingness to spend the money, regardless if it’s priced ‘correctly’ or not.

Unless it’s Jaws or X-Men, I think £6k Pros are a thing of the past, they should all start with a 5 now by the looks of it.
 
Arv said:
We are past the denial stage Vee.
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I thought so, but - then - I’ve just had no problems trading a Centaur.

My experience, when I tried trading the Centaur (plus cash) for a Spike 2 earlier this year was there was a big issue at the Spike 2 end of the market. Lots of people valuing Pros as £7.5k upwards and valuing my Centaur as £2k, and I ended up getting a bit ‘lock, stock’ and not bothering. I expected the same thing trying to trade the Centaur for something of equivalent age/value, but people with older pins to trade seem much more realistic.


I genuinely think it’s people buying NIB at inflated prices, and then expecting not to make a loss on resale.
 
Mozie said:
Hahahaha cmon who told you, your centaur was worth 2k .. that's ridiculous..some proper chancers out there 👏 🤣
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My lips are sealed 💋

I don’t think it’s wholly chancers though. I genuinely think it’s different markets. I had an 80s pin and they had a pin they’d paid £8.5k NIB for and, thus, even if that Pro is now selling for ~£5k and the Centaur is still worth ~£3k, at the time they thought my 80s pin was worth £2k and their pin was £8k second hand.

That’s not really a bridgeable offer and I just kept my classic 80s pin.

And that, to be honest, is the crux of the issue. There are some Spike 2 Sterns that, once the FOMO has worn off, are less fun than timeless 80s classics, and prices are beginning to reflect that now.
 
But also it's about peoples "disposable income". If selling one machine to buy another, thats one thing... But to buy a machine new with no machine to sell, thats completely another.

The amount of "spare cash" people have in their pockets is dropping, due to other prices rising. So whereas someone may have been "willing" to pay say £5k for a machine, the budget may now only strech to £4k.... therefore it sits on the shelf...
 
It's not so much the fomo it's the ability to repair them easily also. Forty years on and I can still repair a Centaur with basic replacement parts.

Not sure the same could be said for these new Sterns.
 
Arv said:
. Forty years on and I can still repair a Centaur with basic replacement parts.
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And availability of those parts! There is still a market for through-hole parts, however this is decreasing as demand decreases. Some parts are now no longer obtainable. there's only so long things can be repaired... :(
 
Really enjoyed reading this thread, its been quite the insight.

When I decided to get a pin my first for my 50th, I really thought I would be a nostalgia buyer but then I didn't really want to have to do repairs etc, so decided NIB would be the way to go. So I played once a month a TILT tried out a fair few machines, talked to a few people and then brought a Godzilla Pro, I didn't really need the extra bits on the premium and I really didn't want to pay any more as I wasn't sure how much i would play. Turns out I played it every day for a year, except if I was on holiday, nearly always with my wife, so we have racked up 5-6,000 games in 2 years.

On value, I knew it would depreciate, I thought 50p per game played would be the value to me but pride of ownership and enjoyment when playing doesn't really have a value. I know it will never be worth nothing, its not really modded in any way and I dont think I will sell it anytime soon so that way I am insulated from the market.

Eventually after getting a little bored playing just 1 game and figuring out I could get fit more in, I decided I really wanted a GotG, so I started looking, saw a few on here for around 6k for a pro, them remembered the wife wanted a Stranger Things, same again looked on here 6-7k for a pro, ask a few people, sent a few messages, received a few messages as people can see you looking and eventually found both, then brought both as an investment in my commitment to pinball where I will trade them in when other machines appear that I want to own.

I figure if I trade them I might lose £500 each but will have easily played and enjoyed them more than that value, and then i might need to top up that value to get the ones I want and if I do that once per machine a year it might cost me about £1-2k a figure we can live with for the enjoyment we get for our new hobby. We are already thinking EJ or Jaws for next year especially over winter when we go out less

I probably wont buy NIB again.

Its not the first expensive hobby i have had, as cyclists, we spent a lot on bikes and like pinball the first thing you do is upgrade them. I now have a bike for life hence my move to pinball.
 
VeeMonroe said:
I genuinely think it’s people buying NIB at inflated prices, and then expecting not to make a loss on resale.
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I'm not sure why this myth keeps being repeated on here. Where are all these (recent) Pins that are being listed for the same price they cost NIB? No one is buying NIB and expecting not to make a loss when they sell it.

I think that's only true for older titles that cost <£4000 when new.
 
Need to remember how much prices increased over a games run, how much was JP2 when it first came out £6,700? near enough £8000 by the end, easy for the seller to get most of their money back and the buyer to feel like they got a bit of a saving.

Always thought NIB should command a decent premium, you get to pull the game out the box, warranty if anything goes wrong, and despite 99% of people here being fully trustworthy, there is still a small risk. With NIB your money is going to an established company and you definitely won't get scammed, that all has value.
 
kev a said:
Always thought NIB should command a decent premium, you get to pull the game out the box, warranty if anything goes wrong, and despite 99% of people here being fully trustworthy, there is still a small risk. With NIB your money is going to an established company and you definitely won't get scammed, that all has value.
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For me that was always £1k, any more than that and it wasn't worth it.
 
Paul said:
And availability of those parts! There is still a market for through-hole parts, however this is decreasing as demand decreases. Some parts are now no longer obtainable. there's only so long things can be repaired... :(
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Fortunately wonderful companies such as WDC have spawned in recent years to supply us with brand new IC's such as 6821 PIA's and 6802 CPUs

I think "classic" era pins will be repairable for the rest of my life.


When I'm dead, someone else can takeover my stockpile

1729088333075.webp
 
Marvello said:
For me that was always £1k, any more than that and it wasn't worth it.
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depends on the game I guess, for something with only a handful of games, maybe.... but for something thats seen a bit of use, with CPU boards (worst case I know) being £500 Id say that piece of mind is worth more.
 
Marvello said:
I'm not sure why this myth keeps being repeated on here. Where are all these (recent) Pins that are being listed for the same price they cost NIB? No one is buying NIB and expecting not to make a loss when they sell it.

I think that's only true for older titles that cost <£4000 when new.
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Absolutely loads of recent examples of people trying to get 95-100%+ of NIB price (Avengers Infinity Quest, Guns N Roses, Scooby Do, Rick And Morty) to name some off the top of my head
 
lukewells said:
Absolutely loads of recent examples of people trying to get 95-100%+ of NIB price (Avengers Infinity Quest, Guns N Roses, Scooby Do, Rick And Morty) to name some off the top of my head
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And pretty much all machines over 20 years old are selling for more than NIB price!
 
Anyway despite all the doom and gloom I paid 6k for a JP pro and Martin’s delivering it today.
He’s taken a while so it may have depreciated since I paid for it but so what I’ll still enjoy it and sell it on for whatever the market value is when the time comes, no tears here.
 
JAG555 said:
Really? 1/4?
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Yes, card market, sports and non sports cards memorabilia, raw or graded slabs.

£25 few months ago. I paid for some things £50 and get told they paid £350. Not my problem, the problem is doing auctions and not letting them cook, no one's buying.

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Extremely volatile market anyway but people pay silly money for paper and it will come back. The main people that do really shell out still are from the US.
 
I have taken a big hit on a book collection (investment) bought between 25 to 20 years ago. 50 to 75% hit is what it is, made on a few but most not. Feel better for it.
Just sell your pins for whatever, money is the root to all evil. You will be dead sooner or later, on here probably sooner. What’s the average age here?

Time to hit the shower maybe😂 Man I hate that game!

Anyway, it’s only pinball. Keep calm and carry on😎

Yeah, been on the lash all day🍻
 
DRD said:
Fear of getting it wrong (buy something and watch it fall in value/ sell it and realise the loss ....) paralyses folk and they sit on their hands.

I used to work in financial markets. For some reason the human psyche likes stable or rising prices. This is just the same whether you are a professional fund manager or a pinball buyer.

If prices are rising and you buy a game you are "smart". If you overpay to buy a game the rising market validates and cleanses your decision.

I have just sold my TZ on here. The parallel advert I had on Gumtree did not prompt a single enquiry. I have never known the market so dead.

The whole world is going to hell so consumer confidence has been smashed. Fancy watches, classic cars, EVs, Pinball ... they are all falling in value.

Our Keir is on it though, so fingers crossed.
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Usually the opposite happens when the economy is bad. People put their money into hard assets. Classic Car prices rocket in a recession.
 
lukewells said:
Fortunately wonderful companies such as WDC have spawned in recent years to supply us with brand new IC's such as 6821 PIA's and 6802 CPUs

I think "classic" era pins will be repairable for the rest of my life.


When I'm dead, someone else can takeover my stockpile

View attachment 263413
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The longer I look at that picture the more annoyed I get that those 2 drawers are missing 🤣🤣
 
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