Think you have had enough Egg-nog
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Where have all the pins gone?
- Thread starter jonathan
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I’m going to go against the flow here.
I’d say there’s more pins coming up for sale in last six months than say in the last 5 years.
They aren’t selling though as there are only so many people who value toys at 8k plus.
I know people who have simply lost all interest due to the high prices. As such their pins don’t come onto the open market.
I’m not convinced there are more people hoarding than 15 years ago. That’s always gone on. It might even be less as the initial “investment” price has gone up. Worrying about it is as pointless as moaning about older richer people hogging all the bigger houses whilst young families are in 2 bed flats.
Many collectors have now also passed peak divorce age (30-40). That always used to chuck up a few titles. Either as a result of splitting assets or (mainly) men having to downside housing. Next stop retirement downsizing/death sales….
I’d say there’s more pins coming up for sale in last six months than say in the last 5 years.
They aren’t selling though as there are only so many people who value toys at 8k plus.
I know people who have simply lost all interest due to the high prices. As such their pins don’t come onto the open market.
I’m not convinced there are more people hoarding than 15 years ago. That’s always gone on. It might even be less as the initial “investment” price has gone up. Worrying about it is as pointless as moaning about older richer people hogging all the bigger houses whilst young families are in 2 bed flats.
Many collectors have now also passed peak divorce age (30-40). That always used to chuck up a few titles. Either as a result of splitting assets or (mainly) men having to downside housing. Next stop retirement downsizing/death sales….
You have highlighted here one of the biggest unsolved problems in British politics. Remove this problem, and most others will spontaneously resolve themselves.
Death sales. [Rant] There’s no way some of these dudes (and it is dudes) are letting go of their unplayed pins (AND their family-sized housing where they live alone) [/Rant]
And HLD, currently have quite a few in stock.Williams Amusements
I’m sure peeps will be making either two their first point of call for selling
Okay, this might be a London thing, but I still remember attending a Lib Dem party meeting in SW London where a bunch of 70/80-year olds spent the entire evening unironically railing against bankers and bragging how their house price had risen since they bought it, on an ordinary middle-class income, forty years ago, to multimillions today - without them lifting a finger.
We pointed out, nicely, that there were bankers living in their neighbourhood. One, for example, lived in a two-bed house (’two-bed’ described charitably as it only had one full-sized bedroom). They had toddler twins and an older child, and had converted the attic into a third ‘bedroom’, accessed via a ladder, in which lived their lodger and his dog.
The elderly gentleman in question, whose house was worth £4.6million, and who lived alone there, was splutteringly offended by us describing this family’s circumstances, and our suggestion that bankers couldn‘t afford his house - even with a lodger to help them pay the mortgage. We mentioned they might not be able to trade up to stay in the area unless city bonuses came back - and, he said (deadly seriously), “well, I wouldn’t want that to happen. No one should have that much money” [I’ll leave you with the nonsensical logic on that one].
Do I think that elderly gentleman had ’worked f****g hard’? I’m sure he thought he had.
Do I think he’d been privileged beyond all recognition by circumstances out of his - and anyone else’s - control? F**k yeah, of course I do.
Do I think there’s a word for the system where that man leaves his grown-up children a £4.6m house, and they inherit £3.2 million between them - a sum of money most people would have difficulty earning over a lifetime? Erm, yes.
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Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party?
Jib
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Could type a long reply to this but trying not to bite
So just a short one to say I'm glad when you're kids leave home you'll be doing your bit for society and downsizing to a 1 bed flat.
I sold quite a few nice pins to Williams Amusements a few years ago but only because I didn’t want the hassle and my location, since I found out Hadfields can be used by anyone and come here I sell myself. Some I advertised on here and WA contacted first.
Very easy to sell to them and paid what I wanted so you can’t blame people.
Seems everyone is holding off buying/selling now waiting to see what happens, when is Pulp Fiction landing
We need a RSP (Religion Sex Politics) thread - for the derails (not all mine)Could type a long reply to this but trying not to bite
So just a short one to say I'm glad when you're kids leave home you'll be doing your bit for society and downsizing to a 1 bed flat.
Having seen the consequences (in various ways) of people not changing housing arrangements as they get older, of course I’ll move somewhere smaller. However, the rate things are going with housing prices, that’ll be a long time. Our 76-year-old neighbour still has one of his grown-up kids living with him.
Asiapinball
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There are plenty of 1990s bally williams around other than a few rare times such as mm cv and totan where only around 3,000 were ever made (4,300 for mm) There were 22,000 addams and 15,000 tz and they were released at the height of location pinball in 1992 where practically every pub had a pinball machine. So there is a plentiful supply of these titles. By 1997 you had to search for pinball machines and williams even struggled to sell anything other than a mm or afm. Williams even had a close out sale on cv and cc and mb where they slashed 25% off the prices to get rid of them from their warehouse. Not many made their way to the UK.
On the demand side there is huge demand for the rare titles. Since you posted your wanted ad for a mm there has been at least 5 others post the same.
A cv came up for sale late 2022 asking £7K but open to offers. It took months to sell.
But once a collector has a mm CV or TOTAN it is very unlikely that they would sell it. Collectors of the high end titles likely have the money and the space and even if they do need the money or space I expect the rare titles would be the last to go.
And you will rarely find them sited as they do take more maintenance and cost more to maintain than a modern stern so why would any operator want the bother? (Although there is a mm on site at Arcade Club Leeds.
And newer collectors are as much the issue as older ones when it comes to lack of older titles on site. When the rare titles come up the collectors will pay the highest price and the machine inevitably ends up in a collectors house for private use or possibly a league or other meeting once or twice a year.
There are certainly not damp shed loads of rare titles being hoarded and if there were they would probably be trashed anyway. The rare and valuable titles will be the ones that people keep set up in their house not in their shed.
I think that’s fair.
To be fair, I have an AFM and am entirely happy with it. If an MM came up, I might swap out, but the reality is that it would cost a shedload more than my AFM, but play pretty similar - so, why bother
I just don’t understand collecting. Or, rather, I *do* understand collecting and I have a personal beef with collectors, especially of games. I think games exist to be played and, if you’re not playing them, sell them to someone who will play them.
Obviously, rarity value doesn‘t come into playing games because things that are limited in number may be so for good reason…
There are actually quite a few sited Addams in London, in retro pubs/entertainment venues, and such-like. They appear in the same places as Pacman arcade machines. MM seems to be the third most-popular sited machine after ‘random EM’. I rarely see a TZ, interestingly.
It’s possible my sense of value is so skewed away from traditional inhabitants of the pinball community that I find a lot of stuff I *do* want to play being stored in sheds
I wouldn’t thank you for a TOTAN - it has a damn cheat on the progression to Wizard mode 
20 years ago there was a steady stream of games available off site or sitting in lockups costing operators money, all these players condition games are now restored in peoples collections. Barring a few with VERY deep pockets people tend to trade up over time, once you have a MM, CV or any of the A list B/W what are you going to trade up for?
Its hard not to be envious of people who have seen a huge increase of house value over the years, but its a symptom of failed government policy, across many departments.
If I had millions in equity by accident, dare say I would be pretty chuffed too.
Its hard not to be envious of people who have seen a huge increase of house value over the years, but its a symptom of failed government policy, across many departments.
If I had millions in equity by accident, dare say I would be pretty chuffed too.
It absolutely is a London thing. It's a political thing too. Too many organisation insist on being in London. It's absolutely ridiculous. Imagine if you spread out all those London based organisations across the country.........
In the 21C it doesn't matter (as much as it used to) where you are based. Except for snobery. Jo Malone, Paris, New York, Skegness. Sounds good to me.
I'd single out charities as one of the worst culprits. WTF do they have to base themselves in overpriced London offices? Oh yes - their std excuse is for fundraising purposes....... Bollx!
I'm happy up in t'north where hording pins away is cheap and plentiful.
I had most of the A list restored WPC pins lined up a few years ago, they looked great but got bored of them and kept them longer than I should have. I just used to walk in the room and look at them then walk out at one stage. I only have MM from that list and that’s because it’s the family’s favourite, pinball is pinball to me now and enjoy whatever is in front of me
(maybe not Vector) Glad I could spread the loveI suppose I'm in the weird position of being one of those horrid newbies who came in during the pandemic, who everyone keeps complaining about. I came in from analogue (tabletop) gaming and still own shelves of board games. Pinball has turned out to be easier to manage with young kids (because you don't need two people for a decent game) and I've always enjoyed top-quality dexterity games (we own Tumblin' Dice and a Crokinole board).I had most of the A list restored WPC pins lined up a few years ago, they looked great but got bored of them and kept them longer than I should have. I just used to walk in the room and look at them then walk out at one stage. I only have MM from that list and that’s because it’s the family’s favourite, pinball is pinball to me now and enjoy whatever is in front of me
Due to the generosity of the founders of Pinball Republic in putting their pins on display, as well as @Hiltoncriss in The Pinball Office, once the pandemic restrictions lifted, we've had the opportunity to play hundreds of games from different eras - all together, simultaneously, in the same room(s). And, from owning a single pin (Fish Tales), which I bought after playing the Williams Pinball app on iPad, my interest has formed around those pins.
It's absolutely fascinating how someone who has no nostalgia and is (mostly) interested in gameplay values which pins are 'A-list'. I've always enjoyed MM/AFM, even on iPad, and the reason my first pin wasn't MM was because I couldn't find one - and it was too expensive as a 'first pin' anyhow. I enjoyed CV on iPad but, when I first came to PBR (formerly Flipout) there was one there at the time, and it didn't totally wow me - there was no way I would see it as an A-list pin. In contrast, I still see Fish Tales as a stone-cold classic - it's simple-to-learn, hard-to-master and perfect for a quick (tough) game when dialled in correctly.
I value 80s pins dramatically higher than the community at large, but only the good ones. I thought it was most of them, but there's a tonne of classics in PBR at the moment and - no offence to their owners - but some of them are a bit, erm... erm... Likewise, I don't have intrinsic nostalgia for 90s pins and some of the B/W pins that have a great reputation, it seems to be because they were innovative at the time. But, sharing a room with Spike 2s, they often feel dated because they do the same things as the modern Sterns/JJPs, but worse. MM/AFM are a rare exception, probably because they're not trying to do anything too complicated.
Obviously, a pinball machine is a pinball machine. If I was stuck on a desert island with Vector (which I've never played), I would definitely be happier than on a desert island without a pin - not least because, if it was working, I had a working electricity supply!
Asiapinball
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It is a London thing. There are only 1.1m over 65s living in London being 12% of the 9.6m population. Across the whole of the UK 18% of the population are over age 65 so proportionately London has far fewer retirees. And most of them will not be in palatial mansions. The real issue is the huge population growth in London over the past 15 years as it has risen from 7.5m to 9.6m. But politicians and commerce is so London focused that they can't even see the obvious answer. Covid proved there was no need to be physically located in London for most. Unfortunately we are now back to the norm of just pumping more money into London which just serves to fuel the London housing problem.It absolutely is a London thing. It's a political thing too. Too many organisation insist on being in London. It's absolutely ridiculous. Imagine if you spread out all those London based organisations across the country.........
In the 21C it doesn't matter (as much as it used to) where you are based. Except for snobery. Jo Malone, Paris, New York, Skegness. Sounds good to me.
I'd single out charities as one of the worst culprits. WTF do they have to base themselves in overpriced London offices? Oh yes - their std excuse is for fundraising purposes....... Bollx!
I'm happy up in t'north where hording pins away is cheap and plentiful.
Yeah, the problem is once the pandemic finished, companies started demanding employees turned up physically at their (London) office - even if they subsequently spend all day on Zoom calls with New York.
How often do you have to play a game for it to count as playing and not collecting?
Any you haven’t played in a while?
I have a list of friends and customers who are after certain games. A lot of things get sold before I even think about advertising them.
If its not still sealed in the original box are you really a collector?
Once a week for a pin? (If you’re not ill). That suggests playing pinball is a habit. Anything less than that, it’s an overpriced decoration.
Yes, they’re in a pile ready to be auctioned straight after Xmas
As said by many already, the stupid asking prices are a lot to do with this too. Folk pricing at top of the market and then some, when we are 20 % down ?
A nice looking, unmolested STTNG went for 3.6k on ebay a couple of weeks back.
The fixed price sales on ebay are usually at stupid prices: 2 STTNGs up there now for 6k and 5.5k for example
At the time of writing, not one single pinball machine on ebay out of 6 listed for auction in the UK has a bid as the starting prices are usually crazy.
Truth will out eventually.
A nice looking, unmolested STTNG went for 3.6k on ebay a couple of weeks back.
The fixed price sales on ebay are usually at stupid prices: 2 STTNGs up there now for 6k and 5.5k for example
At the time of writing, not one single pinball machine on ebay out of 6 listed for auction in the UK has a bid as the starting prices are usually crazy.
Truth will out eventually.
So we should all be playing all of our machines at least once a week, barring illness, otherwise our pins are just decor. Interesting take.
Does this apply to other forms of entertainment too? If I have a blu-ray I haven’t watched in the past seven days is that just decoration too? How about a video game? A book?
I sure do hope you’re finding the time to play all the ones you’re keeping at least once per week.
I'm happy at the moment that virtually everything that is playable is homed and being used with only basket cases in storage . The market is still good for A list titles and A list themes . And projects as some folks love projects . The covid boom is over and buyers are avoiding D listers . Even seller reputation couldn't push Black Pyramid into 4 figures. I didn't expect great things from High Roller Casino. Anyone who overpaid for an unloved title is for want of a better word "lumbered' with it.
For the record . . . I live in social housing (same house for 14 years) and would love to buy it one day. I was born on a council estate and watched my folks work their **** off to buy their first house.
Lost my business during Covid and had to think quickly on my feet. Mrs Gonzo bu@@erd off leaving me with the kids. Fortunately I'd already started building the mancave out of reclaimed timber, freecycle, goodwill, hard work and help from friends. I managed to scramble together some work for myself. My hobby had already become a part time job and I needed to somehow turn it into a full time job.
I traded, borrowed, worked and somehow managed to get to a point where I was okay. However, two weeks ago someone called be privileged
Anyway, my point is that I defend that old geezer in the £4m house because one day I'd like the same. And if at that time I have some tombstoned pinball machines then so be it.
Do you want one? I have a squashed one that I’m waiting to shift. They used to be pretty valuable, but Hasbro have remade it.
The point is that you won’t be the same. The whole deal with ‘the American dream’ (and the British one) is the idea that, if you work hard, one day you too can own a £4.6 million house. The problem is that, due to a combination of historical government policy (largely) and other stuff, there are now people who have made more money in unearned housing wealth than most people can earn in a lifetime, and those people can pass that money straight onto their children - who, subsequently, barely need to work because of the vast mismatch between housing, and other types, of wealth.
I’ve already met people whose parents have sold a multimillion pound house, bought a one-bedroom flat with the proceeds, and their unmarried child - living in that flat - is now working two days a week as a creative writing lecturer to pay for food. Can anyone do that? No, of course not. It’s a breach of the social contract whereby you gain the proceeds of working hard.
There have been periods in history where there was limited social mobility, and the social mobility there was depended on property wealth. If you read the beginning of Pride and Prejudice, it’s there on page two. Needless to say, neither this book, or similar books of the period are centred around farm workers, governesses and labourers remarking on how it’s fine that a gentleman of large fortune has four to five thousand a year because, if they work hard, that’s a 100% achievable dream.
Silverpaolo
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Thought you were 56 Ian !
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