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What the **** is going on in the world of pinball?

johnwhitfield

johnwhitfield

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Well the last two weeks have been interesting.......

Have we hit the time when at least one of the new companies (or an established one) look like they are about to crash and burn

1) Stern. After denying they will run a Premium TWD have screwed over people who bought the limited version by issuing, well, a premium. Who the **** will fork out more going forward for a version that may or may not end up being different? Much as I'm enjoying my game I would have gone down the Premium route instead of paying more for a metal plaque.
2) JJP have totally missed the boat with the Hobbit date, (And lets remember Jack took payments initially for a machine that was due for release in July 2013 and then claimed it HAD to be this month due to the film. You can't have it both ways)
3) Skit-B have pretty much dropped off the radar with £1 million dollars and removed all details about Predator from the net
4) MMr has now missed another production date. 6 months late and counting (again with a certain distributor demanding payment in full 6 months ago as it was "Due within weeks")
5) Heighway pinball have split with their Designer for Aliens. Public disagreements about the April release date. What has happened to Full Throttle? Actually, I think Andy dealt with the split quite well on Pinside as he stood up and answered some questions quickly rather than leaving things to fester but it's got to rock buyers confidence.
6) Dutch Pinball look to be imploding. Refunds being sent to customers without being asked. Missing money. Problems with the licence. (I suspected the music was going to be an issue, but this looks more fundamental)

**** me, all in all this isn't looking good. People are going to get burnt somewhere along the line.

I'm still in for Predator and MMr. Not stressed about MMr as I think it'll turn up sometime next year but won't hold my breath.

Something is happening in the Predator camp but I'm 50/50 about whether I'll ever get my machine. Fingers crossed it will still happen but there's not a lot I can do if things go south.

I can't see JJP not getting the Hobbit out but unless it's great I think they could be in real trouble for number 3. I think they will have to pull a Stern on that one and ask for cash only when the machine goes into production due to their track record on the first 2 machines. Hope it pays off and they deliver a killer set of rules for the Hobbit.

Anyone going to fall for the next announced machine? (Ironically I saw a brief mention on Pinside about a Cthulhu machine, now that would be awesome but my wallet is staying in my pocket from now on until machines are actually built)
 
Wow, that is some grim news, hope everything works out for those that have pre ordered
 
The pre-order business model is looking very shaky right now. Fortunately we have long established companies like PH, risk of losing deposits is much much lower.
 
Ordering through PH does remove a lot of the risk:)

However, I guess our friends down under also thought they were safe with ordering through Bumper. I'm not for one second suggesting Phil would do anything dodgy but the whole point of being a limited company is you can walk away from debts if things go badly wrong. If Stern or JJP went belly up then PH get left holding the bag. I've no idea how many Hobbits have been sold but if it's as many as 30 then we're talking about a hundred and fifty grand of exposure on one machine - gulp:eek:.

I suspect it might be one of the smaller players that don't make it. Paypal presumably only refund if there is money in the account. Linking Paypal to a Credit card would presumably trigger more protection but I don't know what the long stop on that would be. Six months maybe? Paying by bank transfer etc gives no protection at all.

Hopefully none of this doom and gloom will happen but if just one company does go under then I think we'll see people being far more careful with their cash which has to be bad for the scene and the amount of 2nd hand machines we get to buy. :(

I don't know my history well enough but presumably no one was caught out with WMS stopping production as the company still existed. Same case with DE/SEGA as they became Stern? I think Wayne refunded all the MM money, so no one lost out then. Did people ever pay for Kingpin and not get anything? Fingers crossed no one gets burnt
 
I do agree that what was there as in the pre-order model has been seriously dented... There are several people saying that they wont bother now until things have been produced, and alongside people not being happy about the amount of time it takes to come up with finished code (if at all), I can see a return to the days of pre-financed machines only (a la stern)... All in all not good for the community as a whole...
 
I must admit I am very interested in Alien but there is no was I would part with any cash until they hit the streets given that FT hasn't seen the light of day.

Also you're right John, Stern are s##ting on TWD owners by doing a LE after their previous denials. The only machine I ever pre-ordered was my BIB and I think that's when Stern changed their business model as thy could have sold 3 or 4 X the 300 they limited it to. Having said that Stern are the only creditable company out there at the moment and they are just doing what they can to turn a profit, if its crap end the run, if its a success tweak it and sell more, the only mistake they made was saying they wouldn't. There aren't many people in business that wouldn't do the same!
 
I too hope this pre order model ends. Its a big pain in the ass for me too. I would like to see a return to WMS days, just order what you want! I know JJP are looking at moving away from it, but that doesn't necessarily apply to distributors!

Its balancing exposure to getting the right or nearly right amount of stock. I am reasonably careful knowing that if anything went t*ts up, it would be PH's door which was getting knocked on for cash even though everyone knows I have sent the $$$$ abroad. From the customers point of view and reassurance, right now, PH has over £100k of stock that is fully paid for plus property. I would be absolutely furious though selling it all to pay back if someone down the line went t*ts up!

Phil
 
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Is something like that not covered buy the banks that the customer used to pay for it. Like if u use a credit card for a holiday and it goes tits up the card company refunds
 
Problem with the pre-order model is, no company in any line of business will ever willingly give up a working business model where they get the money earlier rather than later. If they can do this succesfully, they will.

In the case of the newer companies (i.e. not Stern) its probably even worse as they'll likely need that up-front money to fund the actual production run itself. No pre-orders will mean no machines.

Whats the current format for pre-orders? Deposit up front with final payment on delivery/ shipping? or do you have to pay the whole lot up front before the production runs even started?

On the Prem/ LE thing, I saw a few posts on the pinside flame-fest that suggested Stern had said they would make premium models if the LE sold well (true or not I don't know). This does seem to differ from what little I thought I knew about their previous release patterns - Were any earlier machines Pro/ LE versions up front with a prem model released later on in the production? I always thought the LE models turned up later with Pro/ Prem being the main release versions?
 
RudeDogg1 said:
Is something like that not covered buy the banks that the customer used to pay for it. Like if u use a credit card for a holiday and it goes tits up the card company refunds
Click to expand...

Credit card payments are insured (not sure if there is a limit). Paypal is covered too. But not a bank transfer, that's your risk.
 
Every boom has everyone wanting a slice of the pie.
JJP took the first massive pre-order dollars and PPS has taken the next massive amount.
Doesn't leave much money for the others.
The perceived benefit of a pre-order v the perceived risk is way out of kilter for me now.
Suspect Predator has license issues that they are trying to negotiate.
They can't say as if there is a run on the deposits, there will be not enough to pay everyone as they have spent a ton on parts, R & D etc.
Going back to buying what is available:)
 
Only for a really limited time, used to be a year but I am not so sure now, then card companies try and wriggle out of it as much as they can, like most people do. I remember when I tried to claim something back off a card when on digital went bust years ago, they told me I couldn't and it was tough, until I told them I was a "merchant" that accepts credit card so understand that purchases are subject to chargeback for 1 year... then they refunded!
 
Credit card companies are basically scummy. They try to deny responsibility unless you get put through to the fraud dept. When we moved last time our solicitor took credit card payment twice (I think it was about 3 grand each time). Rang the card company and they told me I had to sort it with the solicitor. Pointed out that I don't have a payment deal with the solicitor but with the card provider. Was told that it was basically tough. Rung back and got through to the fraud dpt and they confirmed it was their issue and they needed to do a claim back from the solicitors and would recredit my account.

If you pay by a credit card then you are covered by legislation that covers credit provision but I think there is a long stop of about 90 days. Pay by debit card though and you normally aren't covered (although there are a few debit card providers who voluntarily provide this)

As a merchant I hated dealing with chargebacks. Some bastard nicks a card, buys loads from you and then you discover 3 months down the line it's fraudulent and the credit card company takes the cash back. The kicker is that the credit card company still get to keep their percentage of the sale (and the bank charges you once for the credit and once for the debit) There is almost zero incentive for banks to challenge credit card fraud which is why in the old days they resisted putting photos on the back of cards, an easy method to stop face to face fraud but it's not in the banks interest to do this.
 
Replay said:
Every boom has everyone wanting a slice of the pie.
JJP took the first massive pre-order dollars and PPS has taken the next massive amount.
Doesn't leave much money for the others.
The perceived benefit of a pre-order v the perceived risk is way out of kilter for me now.
Suspect Predator has license issues that they are trying to negotiate.
They can't say as if there is a run on the deposits, there will be not enough to pay everyone as they have spent a ton on parts, R & D etc.
Going back to buying what is available:)
Click to expand...

Indeed. In my view the 'resurgence' in pinball has been greatly exaggerated. Whilst it's true its looking better than a few years ago it is still a tiny market. I think for pinheads like ourselves its easy to forget that to 99.99% of the world pinball is dead. Ask any of your non pinhead friends and most will be surprised they are still made, let alone have come across one in the wild recently, and they don't give a flying one anyway :rolleyes: A few barcades popping up here and there and a few more people laying out for NIBs is not enough of a resurgence to support multiple machine manufacturers.

Will be very interesting to see where we are in say 10 years time when the original arcade generation/ 'us lot' have grown out of all this, the older machines are crapping out big time, and the kids are all living their lives on the VR grid 24/7 :D

Meanwhile I'm gonna crack open a beer and enjoy me some pin action :thumbs:
 
GrizZ said:
Indeed. In my view the 'resurgence' in pinball has been greatly exaggerated. Whilst it's true its looking better than a few years ago it is still a tiny market. I think for pinheads like ourselves its easy to forget that to 99.99% of the world pinball is dead. Ask any of your non pinhead friends and most will be surprised they are still made, let alone have come across one in the wild recently, and they don't give a flying one anyway :rolleyes: A few barcades popping up here and there and a few more people laying out for NIBs is not enough of a resurgence to support multiple machine manufacturers.

Will be very interesting to see where we are in say 10 years time when the original arcade generation/ 'us lot' have grown out of all this, the older machines are crapping out big time, and the kids are all living their lives on the VR grid 24/7 :D

Meanwhile I'm gonna crack open a beer and enjoy me some pin action :thumbs:
Click to expand...



Amen!!
 
6) Dutch Pinball look to be imploding. Refunds being sent to customers without being asked. Missing money. Problems with the licence. (I suspected the music was going to be an issue, but this looks more fundamental)

What is that all about? what was the product? the rest I am up to date with.
 
Judge Dreads said:
6) Dutch Pinball look to be imploding. Refunds being sent to customers without being asked. Missing money. Problems with the licence. (I suspected the music was going to be an issue, but this looks more fundamental)

What is that all about? what was the product? the rest I am up to date with.
Click to expand...

Big Lebowski I assume. Not sure where this has come from though, the game looks 95% done and there was a pretty impressive gameplay video put up by PAPA just yesterday.
 
All coming from the bloke who left the company and being shown to everyone on Pinside. It's a bloody long read but looks like they don't have permission to use John Goodman's image or several other images that have been incorporated on the playfield. My understanding of the thread is the US bloke is really concerned about being sued over it so is trying to cut all ties. Can't say I blame him as they will probably go after the US rep first as it's an easier target. I think the PAPA video might have been the last straw as it still shows the use of unlicensed images.
 
I'm really surprised that they started to do all this without actually making sure they could get the rights to use likenesses first, wouldn't that be the first thing you would make sure of before embarking on a huge project like this?
 
my first ever nib pin is a TWDLE, got it last week and very happy with it, i went to the nlp in manchester just to play it and make sure it was good enough before i made the commitment to buy, then i had to decide if i wanted to buy the pro or the LE , even if the premium was on offer at the time i would have still opted to get the LE version ,as i intend to keep it ,even though there is no difference on the playfield, just cabinet and translite, i`ve never been tempted in pre orders, i`d rather wait to see the finished pins on offer, at least stern seem to do this and in future up the amount of pins they make per year, i can`t blame them for making the premium version, the`re in it to make money after all, the more pins coming to this country the better for all of us ;)
 
Archyta5 said:
I'm really surprised that they started to do all this without actually making sure they could get the rights to use likenesses first, wouldn't that be the first thing you would make sure of before embarking on a huge project like this?
Click to expand...

From how I read it there are only 'specific' John Goodman images that are allowed to be used. So they can't just go thru the film willy nilly picking out images they want to use. There is some crazy stuff about you can't use any image that shows John with a gun, or John even near a gun, or John even looking like he is thinking about getting a gun and killing a kitten ... or something :rofl:All smacks of Hollywood lunacy to me but there you go.

****-Just-Got.jpg
 
Ridiculous innit. John Goodman already did the film, got well paid, and moved on. If they get the license to do a TBL pin, they should be allowed to do a pic of him with a finger up his ****, if that was in the film.

I can understand the unapproved use of a Kahlua bottle in one way, but in another, it's all free advertising so I dunno why they have to be such utter utter clints about it.
 
This is getting me worried now I have pre ordered Mmr le I hope nothing goes wrong with this
 
Got to love Americans and their weird values....You can buy a gun really easily but not put a picture of one on a pin.o_O Maybe his agent doesn't want him to be associated with this role anymore

Noticed yesterday that flesh eating Zombies are fine on TWD but the word **** has to be faded out, presumably not to offend kids....

Licensing is a bitch though if you don't know what you are doing. I got in trouble in the 90s for re-releasing an album by Neil Innes because there was a tiny picture of HMV's "Nipper" hidden on the artwork. Didn't even see the bloody thing until I'd pressed up a couple of thousand copies. Got away with just having to pay a few hundred pounds to clear it but releasing anything prior to clearance basically puts the licence holder in a strong position to ask whatever they like as they know you'll pay rather than go back to the drawing board.
 
Licensing issues really do gets nuts with big properties its so over the top

Sad news to hear about everything going tits up all over the shop. Hopefully things will work out. i'd say predator will happen eventually and I'm hoping the hobbit will be a smashing game so JJP can keep going!
 
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