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Underpricing pins is harming the hobby

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I’ve been on the forum for just over a year, had 6 pins in that time, met some really awesome people who I speak to on a regular basis (in real life), I visit a club over 1.5hr from me on a near weekly basis which I love, I have a pin loaned to me by a pininfo member, what more can I ask from this group nothing,

Prices have increased in the time I have been around, and so has everything else cars for example, however it is all relative like house prices buy/sell, covid has pushed prices up along with the market following America with new pin sales,

5 of my pins have come from forum members and 4 I’ve sold back to forum members,

@VeeMonroe I seem to remember you asking for a pin at a price that was never going to happen and then you were given some advice from people on what you should expect to pay in order to get what you wanted, you agreed with that price I thought, so is the problem that it cost you more for this 4th pin or that it took a while to get, my first pin I brought from here took me 4 months and it wasn’t really what I wanted, so 3 months to get something you wanted, geez!!

You stated in a post on here that you are a troll (correct me if I’m wrong, you said something like that) is this a troll post or are you being serious, it seems you are to wrapped up in forum politics and what others may or may not be getting, nothing I have fell in my lap, I had to spend time getting to know people, to me the most important thing is to PLAY PINBALL, I put that above worrying about others,

I’m sorry but I don’t think this post was your brightest moment on the forum,

Itch
 
Sako-TRG said:
Just read through this entire thread, was hoping for some real hatred and nastiness. Fell asleep 3 times. Time I’ll never, ever get back 😩
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It did bring my attention to the recent Godzilla Premium Wanted ad' so it was worth me hanging around. It reminded me of that Simpsons episode where Ned Flanders loses it.

 
Judderman said:
Was that the set with the skill whipping-post?
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It was but i failed to mention it in the description so I got some negative feedback. For the record you can enjoy yourself just as much with the whipping posts . . . . after a while you hardly notice them.
 
Jib said:
Thank you! I've definitely been considering a league meet at some point, I'm just not ready yet lol
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You are ready, bit just don't realise it!

I understand the anxiety, I remember my first league meet (which was coincidentally at David's house). Id been to pinfest (pinball party back then) amd other shows, but I didn't really understand how a complete stranger opens up their house and let's people play their machines. But they do, and it's great.

I've been to almost every Midlands league meet since, started hosting at my house as well and we love it. Everyone will make you feel welcome.

And the best bit, after you attend your fourth league meet you get issued a special badge and learn the secret handshake which entitles you to buy any machine you want much cheaper than the newbies can buy them!! :rofl:

Seriously though, come along to the league, you'll make new friends and will have a great time.
 
I’ve just realised that over time I’ve bought and sold maybe 50-75 pins and yet never travelled to see one first and never picked one up myself. To be honest I barely look at the photos.

Someone mentioned earlier about not buying games unless they’ve played them. I’m almost the exact opposite. I’m far more likely to grab something I’ve never played as I want to know what it’s like.

Everything sells. If you get a turd, chalk it up to experience and lose a few hundred. Compared to the price of most other hobbies it’s a minor loss. Can you even call it a loss if you mentally value it as £1a play?
 
However, looking on Pinball Owners, it’s obvious there are some unknown number of people with tens of pins, many ‘in storage, awaiting restoration’. It’s not unreasonable for me to want to prod those people to sell those pins - they’re not using them and it’s not unreasonable to assume they value them less than someone with three pins… or, even better, no pins at all.
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I have a "few" pins like that explain to me why I should sell to you?
 
I know a few people with potentially 100s of pins in storage, and I agree it would be nice if they were being played.
But it's personal choice, they have their reasons and do sell occasionally 🤷

To be fair if I had storage and money I'd probably have more pins with a few tombstoned to swap in or out. I'd loan a few to friends in the community so they can be played at least (I appreciate @MajesticPinball feels like this and has let me fix and play his Pinball Magic for nearly two years now 🤣).
Obviously secret handshake friends only.
 
David_Vi said:
I know a few people with potentially 100s of pins in storage, and I agree it would be nice if they were being played.
But it's personal choice, they have their reasons and do sell occasionally 🤷

To be fair if I had storage and money I'd probably have more pins with a few tombstoned to swap in or out. I'd loan a few to friends in the community so they can be played at least (I appreciate @MajesticPinball feels like this and has let me fix and play his Pinball Magic for nearly two years now 🤣).
Obviously secret handshake friends only.
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Absolutely, I've only got space for 4 games in my flat with a collection of 17, most are on loan to friends and pinballinfoers with a few in storage. So if anyone wants a machine just tickle my ear and shake my hand.
 
VeeMonroe said:
I'd prefer no one got banned over this, including me - so let's keep any discussion polite and respectful.

I've secured a fourth pin after looking for 2+ months. There is a shortage of pins for sale at the moment, especially on this forum.

I think one problem is pricing in the UK pinball community. Pinflation has gone mad and many people haven't adjusted. Stern are charging ~£7.5k for a new Pro (and there’s still a waiting list) and that's driving up the cost of second-hand pins.

I was told that a late 70s/80s pin should be worth £1-2k. This turned out to be unrealistic in practice. I was offered three pins in two months - one by someone I'd met in person and the other two weren't on my (very long) want list. The 'real' price for a newbie with no social connections to other collectors is closer to £2-3.5k for an average-quality 70s/80s pin. Needless to say, once I offered this price, a pin materialised within days.

Likewise, I recently noticed a Shadow being valued at £3k on the 'How Much is this Worth' thread. I'd value a Shadow in mediocre condition at closer to a White Water, and about £4-5k. A mint one would be £5-7k, which is what you'd expect for something slightly less valuable than a new Stern. If you imagine what you get for £7.5k from a new Stern Pro compared to a restored Shadow, many people - especially those of us into older machines - would think you're getting more from the Shadow (IMO) and a mediocre Shadow is not £4.5k less than a really nice one.

The consequences of underpricing pins I've noticed, include:
  • Newbies being unable to secure a pin in the UK, and being told to check Pinball Owners (mostly overseas pins, which is less practical than it was pre-Brexit), eBay (mainly deludedly overpriced, junk and scams), and retailers - even people looking for popular/common pins like Addams Family;
  • People who price realistically being hounded off the forums (e.g. skill posts!);
  • Pins priced at the 'community-acceptable' price disappear off this forum within a couple of hours. Viewing a pin requires you to drop everything and take a cross-country trip before it disappears (happened to me), or you're expected to buy blind (a perfect environment for scamming);
  • Newbies get frustrated and upset because nothing is for sale (e.g. dude who 'flipped the table' and got banned recently);
  • Pins get exported as they're worth more overseas;
  • Importing pins seems more expensive/risky than it should because the 'free market' price and the 'community-accepted' price are so different;
  • Buying a pin at the 'acceptable' (i.e. below market) price becomes a privilege from being an experienced collector with the right contacts because below-market-price sales happen before a stranger can buy (I'm suspecting this is happening);
  • Non-selling sellers faff around not selling, or pull out of sales, because the 'acceptable' price isn't attractive enough for them to close the deal (happened to me twice. Also, to at least one other person);
  • The shortage of pins for sale on the open market means people don't want to sell an existing pin incase they can't source a replacement.
I'm not happy about the current prices of pinball machines either. However, being unrealistic about this is just hurting people, especially newbies to the hobby.

Given the pricing norm, most pins that come up on the collector market are being sold to an existing collector for whom it’s their ‘nth’ machine. Unless collectors lend their pins to a community arcade like Pinball Republic, this means we’re going to see the same number of pins in fewer homes, which will lead to fewer pins being played :(
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Wow what a post I haven’t read any other comments yet as I don’t have time but I will say what I think

Newbie s not been able to buy in the Uk and forced to buy over seas or of pinball owners website
I don’t see many newbie buying from Europe these days as of brexit it is much harder to import them even seasoned people don’t do it so much now
As for export I haven’t seen much of that either I have before brexit exported pins but mainly my super mint stuff that people in the Uk don’t see the value in yet in Europe and the states they are much happier to pay for top quality restored pins
Have to go out now but I will continue on my return
 
Jib said:
Thank you! I've definitely been considering a league meet at some point, I'm just not ready yet lol
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Just do it, it’s a bunch of like minded people who don’t judge, are extremely friendly and like to have a laugh.

It’s the most relaxed atmosphere you can imagine, I’m confident that if you turned up and said “I’m shy and nervous” you’d be made a fuss of until you felt at ease.

I’ve made friends, people I talk to regularly, some daily and I always see friends at meets and could easily talk the entire time instead of playing
 
The seeker said:
I’ve been thinking of trading my entire collection…(5) Mad ? Daft ? I can’t really see how I could freshen up my line up without doing the trade route. How els could I still have games without buying back in at a higher rate
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Let me know if you're moving on the Wh2o. I could be interested in a trade. Hope the Sega Rally is going strong!
 
The seeker said:
I’ve been thinking of trading my entire collection…(5) Mad ? Daft ? I can’t really see how I could freshen up my line up without doing the trade route. How els could I still have games without buying back in at a higher rate
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But you would be selling at the higher rate ….. if you sell for example Wh20 for £1234 and buy something for £1234 it’s costing you nothing surely 🤷‍♀️

Appreciate finding something for sale trickier currently, but finding equal trade that satisfies both parties can be also .

Fun innit 😁
 
VeeMonroe said:
I'd prefer no one got banned over this, including me - so let's keep any discussion polite and respectful.

I've secured a fourth pin after looking for 2+ months. There is a shortage of pins for sale at the moment, especially on this forum.

I think one problem is pricing in the UK pinball community. Pinflation has gone mad and many people haven't adjusted. Stern are charging ~£7.5k for a new Pro (and there’s still a waiting list) and that's driving up the cost of second-hand pins.

I was told that a late 70s/80s pin should be worth £1-2k. This turned out to be unrealistic in practice. I was offered three pins in two months - one by someone I'd met in person and the other two weren't on my (very long) want list. The 'real' price for a newbie with no social connections to other collectors is closer to £2-3.5k for an average-quality 70s/80s pin. Needless to say, once I offered this price, a pin materialised within days.

Likewise, I recently noticed a Shadow being valued at £3k on the 'How Much is this Worth' thread. I'd value a Shadow in mediocre condition at closer to a White Water, and about £4-5k. A mint one would be £5-7k, which is what you'd expect for something slightly less valuable than a new Stern. If you imagine what you get for £7.5k from a new Stern Pro compared to a restored Shadow, many people - especially those of us into older machines - would think you're getting more from the Shadow (IMO) and a mediocre Shadow is not £4.5k less than a really nice one.

The consequences of underpricing pins I've noticed, include:
  • Newbies being unable to secure a pin in the UK, and being told to check Pinball Owners (mostly overseas pins, which is less practical than it was pre-Brexit), eBay (mainly deludedly overpriced, junk and scams), and retailers - even people looking for popular/common pins like Addams Family;
  • People who price realistically being hounded off the forums (e.g. skill posts!);
  • Pins priced at the 'community-acceptable' price disappear off this forum within a couple of hours. Viewing a pin requires you to drop everything and take a cross-country trip before it disappears (happened to me), or you're expected to buy blind (a perfect environment for scamming);
  • Newbies get frustrated and upset because nothing is for sale (e.g. dude who 'flipped the table' and got banned recently);
  • Pins get exported as they're worth more overseas;
  • Importing pins seems more expensive/risky than it should because the 'free market' price and the 'community-accepted' price are so different;
  • Buying a pin at the 'acceptable' (i.e. below market) price becomes a privilege from being an experienced collector with the right contacts because below-market-price sales happen before a stranger can buy (I'm suspecting this is happening);
  • Non-selling sellers faff around not selling, or pull out of sales, because the 'acceptable' price isn't attractive enough for them to close the deal (happened to me twice. Also, to at least one other person);
  • The shortage of pins for sale on the open market means people don't want to sell an existing pin incase they can't source a replacement.
I'm not happy about the current prices of pinball machines either. However, being unrealistic about this is just hurting people, especially newbies to the hobby.

Given the pricing norm, most pins that come up on the collector market are being sold to an existing collector for whom it’s their ‘nth’ machine. Unless collectors lend their pins to a community arcade like Pinball Republic, this means we’re going to see the same number of pins in fewer homes, which will lead to fewer pins being played :(
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Ok no 2 people be hounded off by people killing there posts
This is nothing new really but it is pretty crap really lots of people putting the boot in and loving it and I ask myself would I want to sell a pin to any of those people and the answer is absolutely not
But Colin who sold that asked people who knows advice and he was told that skill post pins are not as desirable as non skill post pins and that it had definitely had more than 52 plays but he went on and did the add anyway factor in he paid £4500 and 2 months later it’s £6000 then maybe he did bring it on himself a bit
Another one I saw was someone taking the **** out off spelling mistakes the guy was dislexic I also suffer from this and found it offensive again do I want to deal with people like that no
Many of my best customers I have had been on here and absolutely abused and would never come back on here good for me not so good for group members
No 3 pins at reasonable prices disappear in seconds that’s just how it is there is nothing you can do about that some people like myself have been about for years have built a good reputation up over years and people know and trust you so you really don’t have to go mad with pics a good description and it’s gone
No 4
There is a lot of newbie s who have come on here of recent that are totally clueless yet have an opinion about everything and seem to know it all on for sale post and technical you can’t really come on any forum and gain instant respect you need to earn that another reason long term member s seem to avoid the forum
No5
Buying a pin from at below market price seems to be a privilege for long term collectors
Yes this maybe true but for me it comes over years by hard work and graft treating people well and looking after your customers making contact with operator s and pinball people alike I am very lucky I have a great customer base and I have managed to keep prices down for them but they are loyal and I run a business and they understand that I have to make money I sell to them at the right price with the understanding I want it back when they sell it then sell it on to my next customer I have sold stranger things Le to several customers for around £8500
And I have seen them changing hands for over 11k
No 6
Non sellers faff about again nothing new but in my eyes a deal is a deal and if that’s the case I would never deal with that person again selling or buying the forum is full off messers
No 7 the shortage of pins on the open market means people are reluctant to sell
Again there is nothing you can ever do about this that’s why people often trade as both parties come away happy
 
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DRD said:
If we sell a game to @VeeMonroe at a discount, will you leave the forum ?

Any lads wanna have a whip round ?
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Okay. In the nicest possible way, I don’t want (another) pinball machine - at a discount or otherwise :)

I genuinely felt there was a community expectation around pricing that wasn’t matching my experiences (or those of others I’d seen/spoken with). I was worried that might be causing some problems I’d observed and wanted to get people’s views on it.

Lots of discussion here on thread, much of it very interesting and relevant. I understand what lots of people think, and have had some insight into other people‘s expectations and experiences. It’s more than I could have hoped for and it’s testament to the community that it’s remained (mostly) very polite, despite appearing to be (from some threads on the forums) quite a frought topic :)

Thanks to everyone who participated :)
 
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