From what i remember reading, Ben actually allowed Mike to use that code.... however all is speculative since as per usual it depends on where the info came from...
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Thunderbirds
- Thread starter Clive
- Start date
From what i remember reading, Ben actually allowed Mike to use that code.... however all is speculative since as per usual it depends on where the info came from...
Mercifull
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I think the only thing Ben was annoyed about was lack of attribution. Plus weren't the PinHeck boards only ever used on prototypes anyway? Seems a bit harsh to belittle Homepin over that. Android ripped off Sun even for consumer releases! And even Apple used off-the-shelf DVD player chips in the first prototype iPhones.
I think they "came to an agreement".
Mercifull
Registered
I would be careful what I believed reading Pinside. As others have pointed out there are a lot of toxic posts AND people there that have an axe to grind with me for whatever petty reason they might have?? I certainly don't know it. Far too many keyboard warriors there for me to be bothered with the stupidity. A quick email to me would have quashed that rumor but I guess that's not as much fun as sticking the knife in or spreading BS? I don't post much on the Homepin Facebook page because it is very difficult to do as it is blocked in China and VPNs aren't as good as some would have you believe.
Homepin also exhibited at the recent arcade machine show in Guangzhou, 8-11 May (pic below) and we spoke to dozens of potential customers at that show. We exhibited a Thunderbirds Pinball and two Ride the Wave prototypes.
Far from going broke, we have been super busy building our new ball balance game, "Ride the Wave" and also working on a contract pinball for a large company that will be sited in their stores but not available for sale to the public. We have two other pinball projects in the works but they won't be for sale (initially anyway) outside China. (a couple of pics I took last Friday of TAGs being assembled are also below).
I'll also add that Homepin in Australia IS NOT a Pty Ltd company so 'trading while insolvent' doesn't apply - Homepin Australia is a sole trader structure with me as the sole proprietor. I can trade as insolvent as I like and there are no legal ramifications (I'm not, but I'm adding some clarification to the rubbish being spread around). In Hong Kong and mainland China both companies are Ltd companies with me as the sole director. Our tax return filings are up to date in both jurisdictions and you would quickly be shut down by the authorities here if they weren't.
As to 'unfilled pre-orders' - let me say, for the 200th time, preorder buyers mostly PART paid (a few in full) for a machine. They DID NOT pay the tax (GST) or the freight from the factory and this was always a part of the sale and clearly printed on every invoice. There is an amount of around AU$1000 outstanding to cover these costs. For months now we have been negotiating with the few remaining people and I think we are finally getting somewhere. There are (as at todays date) less than 15 outstanding preorder machines so it's hardly make or break time in any case.
A video of a prototype Ride the Wave can be seen at this link (we have made dozens of changes to software and sounds/music and the cabinet since this video was taken, including adding ball save).
I am available anytime to answer questions from people wanting more information and, as usual, I'm always happy to show people around our two factories. We usually have at least one 'tourist' a month visit us.
Mike Kalinowski
Ben Heck is happy - it's just a few stirrers trying to be "offended on his behalf". Ben is indeed attributed in our service manual - see the intro below. Also see Bens Pinside post below where he acknowledeges that "he is happy" - end of the matter.
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Deleted member 2463
Look at JJP’s factory and compare it to sterns current and any of the other manufacturers, Dave is spot on IMO. Stern can bash out in a week what JJP takes 6 months to do. JJP build quality is super variable.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
D
Deleted member 2463
Mike great to see you’re still alive!
When there is no communication folks fear the worst!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When there is no communication folks fear the worst!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
For those 'concerned' about our boards be assured they all use common parts, almost all through hole (some simply aren't made in through hole so we have no choice) and socketed where possible.
Here are some pictures of our main board, flipper driver board and solenoid driver board. All using standard parts where possible for ease of repair by any competent technician.
Our philosophy is the same right through the machine. We use EASY to get, COMMON components where possible so that repairs and faultfinding is made far easier. Anyone who has tried to repair a surface mount part board with parts crammed very closely together will appreciate our approach I'm sure.
We also isolate our output MOSFETs from the driver circuitry so that, in the event of a shorted transistor, the preceding stages are unaffected. You can see the isolating parts (through hole) on the flipper driver and the solenoid driver boards below. Schematic diagrams are also included in a printed service manual included with the machine.
Here are some pictures of our main board, flipper driver board and solenoid driver board. All using standard parts where possible for ease of repair by any competent technician.
Our philosophy is the same right through the machine. We use EASY to get, COMMON components where possible so that repairs and faultfinding is made far easier. Anyone who has tried to repair a surface mount part board with parts crammed very closely together will appreciate our approach I'm sure.
We also isolate our output MOSFETs from the driver circuitry so that, in the event of a shorted transistor, the preceding stages are unaffected. You can see the isolating parts (through hole) on the flipper driver and the solenoid driver boards below. Schematic diagrams are also included in a printed service manual included with the machine.
I'm pretty sure that's the first time i've seen anyone publicly thank Jon Popaduik in recent history!
Good to hear things are moving forward.
Thunderbirds popular here
Code is the let down not the build quality
Code is the let down not the build quality
I have often said Thunderbirds would kill on location. So good to hear it is doing well Steve.
I'm a big fan of Ice cold beer so good to see a newer version from you Mike. A fun game and stick a redemption ticket machine on it nowadays and you have a winner.
I just wondered how the legal side of things go for something like this.
Does Taito still own the rights to the workings of the machine or can anyone build one as long as you use different theme?
I'm a big fan of Ice cold beer so good to see a newer version from you Mike. A fun game and stick a redemption ticket machine on it nowadays and you have a winner.
I just wondered how the legal side of things go for something like this.
Does Taito still own the rights to the workings of the machine or can anyone build one as long as you use different theme?
Generally speaking with games, beyond any specific patents granted, you cannot copyright game rules (as much as the Tetris Company loathes that fact) - only the distinctive 'look and feel' of a game. Of course, very specific mechanics of the game logic or the construction could be patented, but entire games generally can't.
EDIT: Naw, it's definitely patented - Click 'Images' on this link as well
I'm curious now. Maybe the traditional trick of skirting a patent of changing a small part? Or maybe it's just the benefit of working China.
No reason to assume any foul play at this point as Homepin has properly licensed material so far, just a curious one.
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I truly haven't understood the complaints about the 'new board set' as an unknown factor, I think people forget that we only know what to do with the Williams/Bally/Gottlieb/DE boards because there has been experience with these boards, not because they're somehow more magically repairable. So indeed, I have much appreciated the board designs I've seen so far and it has been a very nice touch.
Then again, I've long since crossed the scary bridge called 'SMD rework' so maybe I'm not the most representative.
I would just implore you to find someone who can give your game a more exciting ruleset for the pinheads. If you're set on the current design for your intended market(s) of new players (and specifically new Chinese players) then fair enough, but 'why not both?' Do what was featured in Monster Bash, or even virtual pinball Pro Pinball: Timeshock - allow the player to choose a ruleset at the start of a credit, say 'normal' and 'pro'. Or just hide the 'pro' ruleset under a button combination so new players don't have to wonder what to do with that screen.
I would be happier to repair one of these boards than attempt a horrid surface mount rework on say a node board from Stern or JJP. I do enough of that in my day job now. Certainly wouldnt attempt on site!!!
Not really a fan of the game, I do not like the DMD graphics (SHOULD of been an LCD screen - its not as if no footage exists) - the sound should of been better and the backglass I think it horrid. But hey that is my personal opinion.
I do know about working with large companies and getting stuff signed off - but it could of been a much better game! Does a reason exist why the software could not become open source?
Not really a fan of the game, I do not like the DMD graphics (SHOULD of been an LCD screen - its not as if no footage exists) - the sound should of been better and the backglass I think it horrid. But hey that is my personal opinion.
I do know about working with large companies and getting stuff signed off - but it could of been a much better game! Does a reason exist why the software could not become open source?
I think there is a massive misunderstanding, or perhaps naivety about the costs of "just adding an LCD" and also about pinball programming in general. It isn't the cost of the hardware, in fact it would be less than half the cost for us to use an LCD for the hardware rather than an expensive, purpose made DMD. The problem is software and content.
The cost of only the software to run an LCD is in excess of AU$50K just to get it initially operational. Then you have to organise content - this takes a specialist and costs thousands of dollars PER MINUTE to create. Some say "just run the film clip" - it isn't that simple, we have investigated.
Just the programming of a game like TAG (as you see it today) cost Homepin in excess of AU$100K when you include the DMD graphics and the newly released update.
If we divide that cost between 100 machines we have a cost of around $1000 per machine - just to make it run!! If (as an example) Stern made 1000 of a model, that would equate to just $100 per machine a much more palatable figure.
This is an area that probably most enthusiasts have very little experience in and so we see comments like this all the time:
"the code let's it down"
"it should have an LCD"
"when is the code rewrite coming out?"
"code - code - code"
I'm afraid that with limited production machines such as TAG, and probably most others we are likely to make in the foreseeable future, the software is as good as it is likely to get.
Stern and JJP have MASSIVE budgets for this area of their business - Homepin simply does not. Stern employs four full time programmers each on more than US$100K a year, they probably also use outside contractors for many things such as LCD graphics.
I really wish people would stop the comparison between Homepin machines and those from the "big players". We are NEVER going to be able to compete with the polish they are able to put into things like their software - never!
This is an area that people will just have to accept I'm afraid because I can't see any shortcut. We have set our sights on making simple, easy to play machines with SIMPLE rules and I know that doesn't appeal to all people. Those people can buy other brands if they want LCDs and deep rules because they are unlikely to come from us.
I believe we have created exactly what we set out to do with TAG, a simple, colourful game that is easy to understand and play. It was never intended to be anything else. All the talk of "it should be.....this, that, something else" implies very little knowledge of the steps required to get ANY machine to the finished stage which is why we don't see dozens of pinball manufacturers. The numbers just don't stack up.
If a software programmer, with pinball experience, wants to offer their services for less than we are currently paying I'm all ears. People with the required expertise like this are few and far between....
The cost of only the software to run an LCD is in excess of AU$50K just to get it initially operational. Then you have to organise content - this takes a specialist and costs thousands of dollars PER MINUTE to create. Some say "just run the film clip" - it isn't that simple, we have investigated.
Just the programming of a game like TAG (as you see it today) cost Homepin in excess of AU$100K when you include the DMD graphics and the newly released update.
If we divide that cost between 100 machines we have a cost of around $1000 per machine - just to make it run!! If (as an example) Stern made 1000 of a model, that would equate to just $100 per machine a much more palatable figure.
This is an area that probably most enthusiasts have very little experience in and so we see comments like this all the time:
"the code let's it down"
"it should have an LCD"
"when is the code rewrite coming out?"
"code - code - code"
I'm afraid that with limited production machines such as TAG, and probably most others we are likely to make in the foreseeable future, the software is as good as it is likely to get.
Stern and JJP have MASSIVE budgets for this area of their business - Homepin simply does not. Stern employs four full time programmers each on more than US$100K a year, they probably also use outside contractors for many things such as LCD graphics.
I really wish people would stop the comparison between Homepin machines and those from the "big players". We are NEVER going to be able to compete with the polish they are able to put into things like their software - never!
This is an area that people will just have to accept I'm afraid because I can't see any shortcut. We have set our sights on making simple, easy to play machines with SIMPLE rules and I know that doesn't appeal to all people. Those people can buy other brands if they want LCDs and deep rules because they are unlikely to come from us.
I believe we have created exactly what we set out to do with TAG, a simple, colourful game that is easy to understand and play. It was never intended to be anything else. All the talk of "it should be.....this, that, something else" implies very little knowledge of the steps required to get ANY machine to the finished stage which is why we don't see dozens of pinball manufacturers. The numbers just don't stack up.
If a software programmer, with pinball experience, wants to offer their services for less than we are currently paying I'm all ears. People with the required expertise like this are few and far between....
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If I can do it for Forbidden Planet and I have NO experience with AV then so could you. This is a poor excuse. Hell my vp Thunderbirds was better than this.
One thing we are extremely conscious of is IP. We make Thunderbirds Pinball under licence to ITV and Sony Music and also video game tables under licenve from Hankin & Co. This is actually one of our strong points as we don't just "copy things" like some Chinese companies do.
Several years ago the U.S. patent laws changed so that EVERY patent expires automatically 20 years from the date of application (not the date of approval). No patent can be renewed past 20 years any longer.
Taito most certainly can claim copyright for the NAME "Ice Cold Beer" but their patent for the actual game mechanism has long expired. That probably explains the name of our machine.......
I assume you are doing it as a hobbyist project? That doesn't quite work in a commercial world unless you are offering your services?
Hi - I can't offer prior pinball development experience but I would love to do it. I'm a professional software engineer and am familiar with embedded environments. I'd ask for basically nothing because I'd like the CV material (embedded development is a nightmare to break into without a CV already in the field) and I know that I otherwise am, not a tempting option.
I'm serious, if you want to go down this route send me a message and let's talk.
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@Sven Normansson worked at Heighway pinball at the same time as I did. We left at the same time if I recall. We ran 2 LCDs on that game via Linux. This guy is a seriously good and knowledgeable person in and out of the pinball field.
Small board computer is the way to go - but the Ben Heck boards (or variations after) would not run decent audio/video. Look at the new Atomic PI - $43!!!! Linux drives screens (as most OS's do these days) - and its free.... LCDs are cheap! It seems beyond belief that anyone would put in an old orange dmd.
Pinball 2000 technology is probably stronger than what is in Thunderbirds.
Thunderbirds was released in 2018 if my memory serves me correct. Ghostbusters by Stern was the last DMD game they made (2016), even the remake Chicago gaming used LCDs (but made MM look like a normal DMD before the upgrade).
Having also worked in the trade - I know hours and hours of work goes in unpaid on pinball machines by programmers and engineers.
I hope someone comes up with a Thunderbirds 2.0 kit (like Bride of Pinbot).
People would of paid MORE for thunderbirds with a decent screen and better sound/graphics. Look at JJP games, they get top money as they are a top made product.
A mistake Mr H made in those days was spending lots of times answering on forums and defending things. You do not see Gary Stern doing that.
Would be nice to see TB have better code. If you get to 'pinball game number two' - which I hope you do, please take on peoples advice. Listen to customers.
Small board computer is the way to go - but the Ben Heck boards (or variations after) would not run decent audio/video. Look at the new Atomic PI - $43!!!! Linux drives screens (as most OS's do these days) - and its free.... LCDs are cheap! It seems beyond belief that anyone would put in an old orange dmd.
Pinball 2000 technology is probably stronger than what is in Thunderbirds.
Thunderbirds was released in 2018 if my memory serves me correct. Ghostbusters by Stern was the last DMD game they made (2016), even the remake Chicago gaming used LCDs (but made MM look like a normal DMD before the upgrade).
Having also worked in the trade - I know hours and hours of work goes in unpaid on pinball machines by programmers and engineers.
I hope someone comes up with a Thunderbirds 2.0 kit (like Bride of Pinbot).
People would of paid MORE for thunderbirds with a decent screen and better sound/graphics. Look at JJP games, they get top money as they are a top made product.
A mistake Mr H made in those days was spending lots of times answering on forums and defending things. You do not see Gary Stern doing that.
Would be nice to see TB have better code. If you get to 'pinball game number two' - which I hope you do, please take on peoples advice. Listen to customers.
Mercifull
Registered
I don't really care for LCD screens and don't think the lack of it detracts from the theme, but I humbly believe it should have been a teal blue coloured DMD.
I reckon it's a safe bet to say that's an order of magnitudes more expensive than what they're using as a CPU. All goes onto the sales price, which they're trying to keep as low as possible. No use saying people would pay more when you refer to pinball fans, if you're trying to split a new market with no prior knowledge whatsoever in pinball at all (China.) That's without going into supply logistics, the Pi producer can't even keep that board in stock on their own website, never mind supply chaining to China. Also, embedded x86... ew. Trying to build a production image on top of Linux, on top of a specific implementation of an x86 board? There's not enough pepto-bismol in the world for that. Of course it can be done, but of the two options, I know which one is most reliable once set up.
Could you say that maybe the game has too many different roles to try and fill? For us, that seems true.
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I think if code is 'the issue' then one solution worth exploring would be open sourcing it. You could still have your lead developer under control of what gets accepted into the main branch of released software, but you could have dozens of experienced but hobbyist developers helping find and fix issues and add new features at no cost.
Paul has access to Courtney's machine if Mike accepts his offer. I love the theme and the casual players love the bright colours but playing it doesn't make a lot of sense!
Mercifull
Registered
That might work for original brands but i doubt any licence would cover something like that as every change probably has to be signed off. In the case of TAG then ITV Studios will have approved probably every bit on that machine (from a players point of view). There is risk to brands of having stuff open sourced.
Hmm? You don't need to include the licenced media in the source control library. (You don't even need to include the core OS library so long as it's very well documented, though that might be more challenging)
And as I said, any changes to code would need to be approved by the library maintainer (employee at Homepin, or Mike himself) before being included into the release branch.
There are arguably other issues with trying to make something like this open source, such as the 'team' all heading in different directions, but I wouldn't expect licencing to be the stumbling block?
I've been doing software development for over 30 years, but unlike Paul I wouldn't just throw my hat in the ring without knowing what I was getting involved with first. It's entirely possible that the original developer/s have created an impenetrable tangle of code. This is often the case when you see projects that have time pressure to get something out there quickly as a priority over high quality and maintainable code. I've worked on enough X million lines of code projects that were full of 'quick fixes' to never want to get involved with anything like that ever again. Doubly so if unpaid.
I've nothing but respect for Mike (and Paul B), but personally I think I'd like to understand the current state of the code before offering to help out.
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I'm going to wager that part of the problem is that they don't have anyone in house that could set up such a framework, maintain it or evaluate contributions. I don't remember exact details but I've read the stories from Mike he's posted in the past about dealing with the software side of the game, and it's my understanding that they've don't have a permanent employee for it anymore. Without an in-house programmer the open-source route leaves them still with nobody that they can interact with and work out a schedule, and guarantee reliable delivery.
Also, indeed it's wiser to evaluate the situation before offering to commit, but I'm happy to take the risk in this case because this kind of software development is my dream career, and my experience so far is that without some form of bootstrap on your CV, you can't get into the field, especially not if you were paying your bills with .NET desktop development - you may as well have on your CV that you can barely tie your own shoelaces, as far as that proves capability in this field. I haven't found time to produce a portfolio piece that would demonstrate ability - my best technical demonstration is too obscure to be good CV material and is unhelpfully devalued in many eyes by being game related - I binary-patched a DOS game to make it a harder game as I found a route through the game that destroyed the challenge... maybe the major modification of the Atari ST ROM I was planning would be a good piece, but I haven't actually been able to work on that project because of my home situation for a few months at least.
I'm happy to risk walking into a nightmare codebase for something that would help me get a foothold in a field that I know I have the skills required to thrive in, but haven't been able to prove to employers in the field yet.
Also, indeed it's wiser to evaluate the situation before offering to commit, but I'm happy to take the risk in this case because this kind of software development is my dream career, and my experience so far is that without some form of bootstrap on your CV, you can't get into the field, especially not if you were paying your bills with .NET desktop development - you may as well have on your CV that you can barely tie your own shoelaces, as far as that proves capability in this field. I haven't found time to produce a portfolio piece that would demonstrate ability - my best technical demonstration is too obscure to be good CV material and is unhelpfully devalued in many eyes by being game related - I binary-patched a DOS game to make it a harder game as I found a route through the game that destroyed the challenge... maybe the major modification of the Atari ST ROM I was planning would be a good piece, but I haven't actually been able to work on that project because of my home situation for a few months at least.
I'm happy to risk walking into a nightmare codebase for something that would help me get a foothold in a field that I know I have the skills required to thrive in, but haven't been able to prove to employers in the field yet.
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Could you swap over to a small linux board running a lcd + well known framework like mission pinball. And just make some sort of bridge board to speak to the current TAG board so you don't need to replace all the hardware. Least you can then code all the rules from scratch with a nice framework.