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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ - Comments on Sales/trades/wanted threads

Comments on sales/Trades/Wanted threads.... Yes or no.... (Simple choice!)

  • Yes

    Votes: 131 85.6%

  • No

    Votes: 22 14.4%
  • Total voters
    153
So - here's a question then....

I was thinking about having some fields in the Classifieds that prompt people in what they need to put...

so for example on a Machine sale :

  1. Item Pros (Text Box)
  2. Item Cons (Text Box)
  3. Item Condition (Radio buttons)

What would you like to see in there if you were a buyer??
 
This is going to be like the Brexit debate.

Even after the poll has been clearly won by those who want comments, the Theresa May/ Lord Adonis/ Anna Soubry types will remain in denial and try to overturn it
 
Pinball value is a really interesting topic.

Do we know roughly what percentage of sales of used pinball machines in the UK are done on this site?

If it is a large proportion, then we may be entitled to claim that we know the true value of a game.

If it is a small proportion, all we know is that within our small circle this is how much we value this game. It does not mean that its true value, outside of here, is as we think it is.

So before we go and say, such a game is worth 1k, 2k, 3k or 4k maybe we ought to understand the answer to the question.
 
I defo see some are preferring to sell on Ebay but I don't know if that's driven by thread comments or other benefits.
 
£1 listing days and a slightly higer end price will be why... however that is counteracted with Buyer hassles and silence when the item sells...

On here, machines sell for probably closer to what they are actually worth..
 
DRD said:
This is going to be like the Brexit debate.

Even after the poll has been clearly won by those who want comments, the Theresa May/ Lord Adonis/ Anna Soubry types will remain in denial and try to overturn it
Click to expand...

Or we can wait 4 years during which the promises of harmony and prosperity by the architects of the proposals fade away whilst we threaten other forums with gunboats and tariffs.

😉
 
@Paul

I don't think it is feasible or fair on mods to actively police sale threads.

What a buyer thinks is "good condition" and what a seller thinks is "good condition" will rarely coincide. There are loads of folk on here that I know and trust and who I have transacted with - but even they may innocently miss things, as might I.

Describing wear on a 40 year old machine on a consistent basis is impossible. It is why we all want many high res photos.

If a seller does not supply high res photos, you take a view. Is it worth investing the time to pursue this ?

Even if the forum supplies a really basic prompt - it will not achieve full compliance

Are there any broken or cracked plastics?
Does every solenoid work?
Does every aspect of the display work properly?
Do the controlled bulbs all work?
Does the sound work properly?

Trying to warn people that TZ is complex is a daft idea

Even a fully working game may well suffer connector shift/ bulb failure by virtue of being moved !

I actually think that things work pretty well at the moment. What we have now has developed organically over the years.

There are many, many pinball guys who do not use Facebook or pinballinfo.

To address them.....

eBay is a sewer
Gumtree is OK
 
domlouis said:
Pinball value is a really interesting topic.

Do we know roughly what percentage of sales of used pinball machines in the UK are done on this site?

If it is a large proportion, then we may be entitled to claim that we know the true value of a game.

If it is a small proportion, all we know is that within our small circle this is how much we value this game. It does not mean that its true value, outside of here, is as we think it is.

So before we go and say, such a game is worth 1k, 2k, 3k or 4k maybe we ought to understand the answer to the question.
Click to expand...
The only problem with that logic is that it assumes that everyone is objective and rational. There is plenty of evidence that shows that isn’t the case.

If I were to sell my TAF on here, which is very high spec, for £6500 or something, I would certainly expect the usual suspects to chime in saying - for the umpteenth time - how they don’t understand how TAFs can go for that much, why it’s even popular at all “when it’s just chair ramp chair ramp”, why someone doesn’t just buy the latest Stern instead, etc, because those people can’t seem to help themselves and think their opinion is gospel.

I definitely think there is a duty to protect members and newbies from disingenuous or deceptive sales, but thankfully the community being what it is I don’t think it’s a major problem on here? I mean a regular could only “scam” someone once before they’d be a pariah.

I do think, however, there is an element of casual conversation that maybe ought to be less prevalent, and I include the whole “great pin dunno why it’s stuck around so long”, “omg super bargain”, “I can vouch for Jimbob he took a bullet for me in ‘Nam”, etc in that too.
 
Durzel said:
I definitely think there is a duty to protect members and newbies from disingenuous or deceptive sales, but thankfully the community being what it is I don’t think it’s a major problem on here? I mean a regular could only “scam” someone once before they’d be a pariah.
Click to expand...

Agreed - problem is however that because of the sums of money involved once is too many.

Whilst i go at lengths to stipulate that the forum Isnt responsible, i believe that we should go as far as we can to protect both sellers and buyers.

DRD said:
What a buyer thinks is "good condition" and what a seller thinks is "good condition" will rarely coincide. There are loads of folk on here that I know and trust and who I have transacted with - but even they may innocently miss things, as might I.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. However pics should cover some of this (for example, on machine sales, it will be obligatory to provide at least one pic). Granted, most do anyhow, but there is the occasional one that doesnt, and is the first thing requested! :)

DRD said:
I don't think it is feasible or fair on mods to actively police sale threads.
Click to expand...

We couldnt - it's as simple as that. We rely on you guys to highlight issues... there's three of us... and 350+ daily members!
 
I've been hanging fire on responding in this thread as I suspect my opinion might not be that popular :rofl:

The majority of comments on for sale threads are neither warranted or required in my view. A seller can post as much or as little about a game as they want, can stick whatever price on it they want etc. If it's a good to fair deal with enough info for buyers to be able to make that call then it will sell. If these things aren't there then it won't and it's on the seller to sort out, it's their machine at the end of the day. We have a valuations thread where people can ask what a game is worth, we have other threads and PM's where people can ask for opinions on games and sellers without sticking this in the actual for sale thread. We have a report post function for weeding out scammers etc etc.

The biggest argument for allowing comments seems to be around protecting newbies for getting ripped off and whilst I appreciate and understand the sentiment I have a slightly different take on this. When I first started buying pinball machines this forum didn't exist. There was the Yahoo group and that was it for the UK so you had to do a lot of research and digging for info yourself and I truly believe that the time I invested in informing myself about the condition of games, their potential problems, things to look out for etc has been massively valuable to me in all the years I've been in the hobby and enabled me to buy and sell many games over the years without ever being ripped off or, hopefully, ripping off someone else. I also think that knowledge has enabled me to take punts on games that a lot of others wouldn't go for and because of that I've had some great deals on weird, rare and interesting pins.

If you've got the kind of money that pins cost to spend on toys then in my opinion it's your own responsibility to educate yourself on what you're buying and make an informed purchase based on what you've learnt and know. If sometimes that leads to getting a great deal on a fantastic game then brilliant but if it leads to getting shafted with a lemon then take it as a learning opportunity, understand what you could have done better to not make that choice again and don't do it next time! IMO you only really learn and improve by having a go and f*cking stuff up :D

It's also been mentioned about this being a community, looking out for each other etc but surely that goes the other way of giving sellers some respect and not dumping in their sales threads. It feels to me like this kind of stuff has got worse as the forum and hobby in the UK has grown (this might just be my rose tinted specs though :D). When there were less of us and a lot of us knew each other personally from shows, league meets etc then I don't feel like there was a much drama as you could put a face to a forum name if you get what I mean? Like I say, this might be me talking b*llocks but just a feeling I have :thumbs:
 
99% of the sales threads are fine no problem whatsoever. Personally I find the “great looking pin” and “I’ve know Bob from years in the scrubs” helpful especially as someone still new to the hobby it helps set precedent with seller.

I think the idea of an auto trader type basic set of information would be great.

things like HUO, number of plays, DMD, mods, condition etc. Maybe It would allow you to search the for sales based on if your just looking for a low play HUO machine or something a bit more player’s condition.

overall this site has been a godsend in helping me find my way and keeping me safe even if it’s led from spending a few grand to dropping £8k on a BNIB. For that the wife will eternally despise you all
 
DRD said:
This is going to be like the Brexit debate.

Even after the poll has been clearly won by those who want comments, the Theresa May/ Lord Adonis/ Anna Soubry types will remain in denial and try to overturn it
Click to expand...
As always, the yes/no vote was the easy bit. We moved onto discussing the how we implement the decision. Do we allow all comments or apply some structure to both the person who creates it and the type of comment that is welcomed.

This yes/no vote was a once in a lifetime vote so we are not due another one for four years.
 
I think @ronsplooter nailed it and to some extent durzel with his TZ observation.

People should research a machine, reliability, search old threads - thats the advantage forums have over say ebay etc.

Again, the community policing works as an idea, with the exception of people’s opinions on certain titles.

To me I think its simple: comments should be allowed, but the rules state only on-topic in the For Sales sections:

Not mentioning names, but what got me irate and expecting the “chafe” as I put it when I listed the Alien machine, is peoples hatred, opinions and views - as I cited - I think its so frankly disgusting how an earlier “WTB Alien” thread was derailed by people who hate HP or the game itself. The OP even stated he knew the issues at the start FFS!

How about a sub forum which can have threads game by game so that people can contribute, this is a common problem, that part is unobtainium, etc etc. I don’t precisely know what good this would do other than newer pinball owners/buyers being able to use it as a starting guide as to what hazrads that title has. The other pin forum has a members thread for each game, and personally this is good and of course keeps hints, tips, new mods, parts etc housed neatly.

You have a valuations forum here apparent, so price discussion should entirely be kept to there And certainly not on a FS post... if a potential buyer posts a WTB with the line “Whats it gonna cost” so be it, expect the drums to get beating.

So to repeat, no discussion on a title or its value should be tolerated in a FS post. Period. I think this actually (in my mind) alleviates @Paul ’s suggestion of standard Form feilds. If, say someone wants to know something I wouldn’t have considered putting in a FS description - I dunno, something like “what rom revision is it running?’ - would be absolutely why comments should still happen and a very useful for everyone who could conceivably be interested.

EDIT: a block of text saying keep comments on topic - use the ‘report’ button if you feel a reply is unacceptable/unwarranted/etc etc could be a handy reminder in the quick reply area perhaps?
 
Last edited:
So we can open a new thread somewhere else on this forum and ask:

"@Rav is selling an Alien for £7777 what does everyone think?"

And people can comment on that thread, and say anything they like? Does that make it better/worse? Maybe better for the seller, if he's hoping no-one thinks of looking for any post outside the FS thread.

I agree with @ronsplooter about learning on your own, but part of that learning process is listening/reading what other people say about a particular item. Why not help the newbies ( I am one myself, so maybe my view is clouded), you learn from others knowledge and mistakes, surely you don't want everyone to make the same mistakes you made?

It doesn't take long to see those who have strong opinions in the forum, and those who's opinions one appreciates. And those whose opinions you agree/disagree/value will be different for each member on the forum, I suspect.

If we can't see comments and opinions, does it not make buying here a bit pointless? Why not just take a chance on the next Ebay auction then, seems like the risk would be fairly similar?

And on the Ebay note, no-one seems to object to the Ebay/Facebook etc thread in the for sale section - lots of comments around price/condition etc for machines on those platforms. Again, very useful to me, but hypocritical to allow those comments where the user is most likely not a member and, therefore, not able to defend themselves, but ban any comments on "our" For Sale thread here?

By the way, in case of any doubt, I am FOR allowing comments 😁
 
I don't tend to sell pins on here as there tends to be quite a gulf between what people think machines are worth and what machines actually sell for. I don't think I've ever actually sold one on here but I could be wrong. I'm not against selling on here but I find it much less hassle to sell on ebay when the time comes. I've advertised a couple of machines on here but when people are telling you that a machine that you paid £2000 on here is worth £1500-£1800 and you sell it a week later for £2300 on eBay what are you going to do going forward? People need to be more realistic with pricing otherwise everything is going to end up in HLD's warehouse.
 
Paul said:
o - here's a question then....

I was thinking about having some fields in the Classifieds that prompt people in what they need to put...

so for example on a Machine sale :

  1. Item Pros (Text Box)
  2. Item Cons (Text Box)
  3. Item Condition (Radio buttons)

What would you like to see in there if you were a buyer??
Click to expand...

Some of the descriptions under pros/cons can be very good but it's subjective and only as good/complete/relevant as the author intends. I'd prefer there to be a more prescriptive start point which sellers have to adopt but can add content as they see fit.

As a Buyer I like to have a decent set of pictures of the playfield (top and underside), backbox (outside and inside showing boards) and cabinet (inside and out). This allows me to start to gauge the condition of the pin and begin to set my expectations on what I'll get if I buy it. Clearly some sellers choose to go the extra mile and show a video. Partly assisted by the pictures I'm looking to understand the following:-

1. Operational condition - does the pin boot up and play/operate (including lights & sound) properly. Y/N. If N then what's the story?
2. Any of the playfield plastics, ramps, moving parts and fitted mods damaged and/or repaired and/or incomplete. Y/N, if N then what's the story?
3. Is the display fault free? Y/N . If N, then what's the story.
4. Any particular wear spots and/or repairs (including paint touch up or cliffy covering) on the playfield. Y/N, if Y then what's the story?
5. Is the playfield reasonably clean and are the rubbers ok/unperished. Y/N. If N, then what's the story.

The above tells me pretty well what I need to know about whether, subject to price, I'm interested to buy the pin. On pricing, it would be great if we had a simple database that stored agreed prices by pin/model. I don't expect we have the volume to match what Pinside do but I find their median price data a useful, rough and ready guide. I appreciate there are so many variables when it comes to pricing that there isn't an ideal solution. But as has previously been mentioned, if in doubt a buyer can simple post the add on the Forum to ask the price view of members.

Clearly there is other information that sellers legitimately add to support pricing and/or cater to the known interests of some buyers (HUO, Lifetime plays, LED upgrades, matching original boards, previously fully restored by X, latest ROM code, etc)

I voted to retain comments and reckon most readers can pick their way through them. If a buyer is really confused then maybe make it easier to identify the various people on the Forum who make a living from pins and are happy to give their professional view in a PM.
 
As someone who knows virtually nothing, the comments on posts have helped a lot. It's the kind of community spirit which makes this place, as a newbie I don't think you can underestimate the importance of discussion. There's loads of marketplaces out there to just sell. This place should be much more than that.


Being blunt, we all have certain people's opinions we hold more weight to than others. That's just life. Maybe enforce stricter rules on sales posts or something rather than contemplate removing them entirely. Is that even necessary? If you don't want to buy something, why not just scroll past?
 
I am sure most of us here know what a pinball is worth in a certain condition. If you want to buy it is your decession.

Now I am guilty of this, as I have not donated yet for the last 2 pins I have sold (but generally I do!) - but I feel it is important once a table is sold to donate something to the group. A fiver, a tenner, more.... A £3K pinball will cost you maybe £250 to sell thru ebay unless it is a £1 listing. As a rule, it is rare for me to advertise on ebay now, as I would rather keep a machine in the 'family'. If you sell a pin via a wanted listed then maybe you should throw a fiver in each into the kitty.

Another important here vs ebay fact is you do not get as many messers on here. I do not think here I have not had anyone who has simply not shown up. 95% of the times deals are all good, and maybe 5% of times you get someone who has a change of mind or circumstance and has to say they can not complete the deal. I would rather have the honesty. On ebay I have taken time off work and waited... and waited....no show, then its two weeks of sending messages and getting the money back off ebay.

Whatever the words say - the pictures do most of the selling on here. It takes no longer to take two cr@ppy pictures than 12 good ones. Most phones now have good cameras and if the seller could not be bothered to take a few nice pics then you have to maybe ask why.

I think it would be an idea on for sale threads for the buyer to at least comment when the sale has completed and was as described. It then shows new members that this place I would say is NEARLY 100% safe.
 
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