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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ - Comments on Sales/trades/wanted threads
- Thread starter Paul
- Start date
Not always true. Then the naive buyer is stuck with it or trys to resell at same or more. Suddenly people think a DE pin is worth 5k...
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This is the great thing about opinions, on re reading the hobbit post, you’d potentially make the point that I was stating £5K was too low, £5.5K is what I’d pay for a hobbit but with the mods that one was probably worth more.
Again if you class being out, stating this and that I would upload the plays when I got home and in the pin room, of which I duly did as promised the same day requested as avoiding it, again you are entitled to an opinion. I understand stating HUO and super low plays, but I’d warrant that the majority don’t when it’s not either of the above two.
A more paranoid person might feel you had it in for me @CHRIS B PINBALLS
which I have no idea why that could be. If I’ve offended you somehow, rather than derail this any further I’ll drop you a PM and try and clear the air.
The vouching of a seller is a great point made by a few already.
This is not ebay and as much as Paypal has it's flaws it does offer some form of vetting. In many respects when a newbie joins the forum and is looking to buy a machine then transferring thousands into the abyss is the major concern.
My first purchase on here was Jackbot and I very much appreciated people vouching for Keith because it put my mind at rest before the money transfer.
I know a couple have suggested that it's mates looking after each other but sometimes that's the only validation available.
This is not ebay and as much as Paypal has it's flaws it does offer some form of vetting. In many respects when a newbie joins the forum and is looking to buy a machine then transferring thousands into the abyss is the major concern.
My first purchase on here was Jackbot and I very much appreciated people vouching for Keith because it put my mind at rest before the money transfer.
I know a couple have suggested that it's mates looking after each other but sometimes that's the only validation available.
Chris sells loads of pins and so has a unique experience/point of view. His games sell fast for many reasons but one of which is he's well known. Many other sellers are not and comments on the threads are a good thing. The majority of people on here like chatting, it is a forum after all and you have to accept that chatter if you want to sell here I would think. There are other options available for selling pinballs. Seems to me people want their cake and to eat it. Ease of selling on here to known members combined with no chatter. People do cross the line in some sales threads. Tell them to pipe down or get someone to moderate that section specifically. The odd 'beautiful machine' or 'GLWS' is hardly an issue though is it.
No. Moderate obsenity, not opinion.
This is an open forum. Mods have a responsibility to remain neutral and not censor conversation.
This is an open forum. Mods have a responsibility to remain neutral and not censor conversation.
Thanks for the kind comments huggers and Dom I always appreciate nice comments
I do encourage buyers to leave feedback on either the original post thank you or today I received thread
And also if you have anything you are not happy with then I also welcome that via pm there is nothing I can’t sort out
I do encourage buyers to leave feedback on either the original post thank you or today I received thread
And also if you have anything you are not happy with then I also welcome that via pm there is nothing I can’t sort out
Personally I’ve never had a problem with comments, as long as they’re relevant to the for sale thread in some way. It’s not derailing the sellers post, people going into their own discussions on a for sale thread etc.
Slightly off topic but having comments does allow it. I think the most annoying thing I see which happens sometimes is when people put a wanted ad up for a game and people chime in saying “It’s a fantastic game, here’s my minty example and it’s not for sale.” Posting a bunch of pics of their game. Talk about rude, you’re basically hanging a nice juicy piece of meat in front of a slavering dog saying he can’t have any. I think that sort of behaviour is really poor and if I was looking for a game I’d be really ****ed off if anyone did that!
Slightly off topic but having comments does allow it. I think the most annoying thing I see which happens sometimes is when people put a wanted ad up for a game and people chime in saying “It’s a fantastic game, here’s my minty example and it’s not for sale.” Posting a bunch of pics of their game. Talk about rude, you’re basically hanging a nice juicy piece of meat in front of a slavering dog saying he can’t have any. I think that sort of behaviour is really poor and if I was looking for a game I’d be really ****ed off if anyone did that!
James if you hadn’t done the pricing police thing on another post I would not have even mentioned the iron maidenThis is the great thing about opinions, on re reading the hobbit post, you’d potentially make the point that I was stating £5K was too low, £5.5K is what I’d pay for a hobbit but with the mods that one was probably worth more.
Again if you class being out, stating this and that I would upload the plays when I got home and in the pin room, of which I duly did as promised the same day requested as avoiding it, again you are entitled to an opinion. I understand stating HUO and super low plays, but I’d warrant that the majority don’t when it’s not either of the above two.
A more paranoid person might feel you had it in for me @CHRIS B PINBALLS
And everyone has an opinion it’s down to you if you except that or not
When you bought that iron maiden you know it was ex op by the condition and the person you bought it from and the fact you stripped it down to clean and repair it before listing it you did not mention any of this in your post it’s not dishonest but it’s not transparent either and when you where politely pulled on how many plays it had had by Ian you avoided the question like a used car sales man saying you didn’t see any problem with how many plays it had on it
Again when marvelo politely explained it was like buying a car with 30k miles on it or 100k on it again you failed to see a difference only an option but 100% correct you really need to take these comments on board and let them sink in if you want to be a valued seller on here
james honesty and transparency if you best friend if you want a good business
right I have said my bit now I am no longer going to comment on this if you have finished work then have a great pinball week up to Christmas
Also, I’ve noticed there’s regulars on here who post, all good.
Then a sales thread comes up.
Members come out of the woodwork who haven’t posted for like 2 years with some random post on the FS thread, no intention of buying but post a wise crack, like you got robbed, you over paid etc.......Very unhelpful.
unfortunately- some peeps just love drama.
That’s fine elsewhere on the forum, but stay clear of the sales threads, stick to PMs
Then a sales thread comes up.
Members come out of the woodwork who haven’t posted for like 2 years with some random post on the FS thread, no intention of buying but post a wise crack, like you got robbed, you over paid etc.......Very unhelpful.
unfortunately- some peeps just love drama.
That’s fine elsewhere on the forum, but stay clear of the sales threads, stick to PMs
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Deleted member 2463
Shame you can’t see who voted for what!
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Deleted member 2463
This is the great thing about opinions, on re reading the hobbit post, you’d potentially make the point that I was stating £5K was too low, £5.5K is what I’d pay for a hobbit but with the mods that one was probably worth more.
Again if you class being out, stating this and that I would upload the plays when I got home and in the pin room, of which I duly did as promised the same day requested as avoiding it, again you are entitled to an opinion. I understand stating HUO and super low plays, but I’d warrant that the majority don’t when it’s not either of the above two.
A more paranoid person might feel you had it in for me @CHRIS B PINBALLS
Chris doesn't like anyone
This is the exact reason open discussion is good. Pretty sure that number of plays talk on James thread was a good thing. It may well have been an innocent oversight but people being able to bring it up can only be a positive.
Completely agree @huggers - and I agree with some Of what @CHRIS B PINBALLS has to say too, although not the used car salesman bit - bit harsh that one.
- bit harsh that one.
^^^^ yeah James, was that IMDN on the Legacy of the Beast Tour with the band
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Interesting discussion, I can see it from both sides.
Take Alien for an example. Anyone in the know realises why they’re being sold now, what comments like “3 in one week” allude to, and the existence of a remake isn’t communicated anywhere in either of the two threads I saw (it was claimed a third was up for sale), for obvious reasons one would say - as it would impact the sale.
Would that be deemed a lack of transparency on the part of the seller in the same vein as not overtly mentioning the number of plays a pin has had, or the fact it was routed, to use the IM example?
In the case of Rav’s Alien, the fact the remake wasn’t mentioned, potentially inducing a buyer into a sale is - in my opinion - on the same level as not mentioning that TZ has various mechs that make it potentially more difficult to maintain than other ones. In other words, it’s not a lie or deception, really. When do comments cross a line from being stuff that is genuinely seeking to protect a buyer, and one that just potentially trash the sale for no good reason? Surely we have to assume that buyers of any pin are doing some due diligence before handing the money over.
There’s definitely a grey area with this I think.
Take Alien for an example. Anyone in the know realises why they’re being sold now, what comments like “3 in one week” allude to, and the existence of a remake isn’t communicated anywhere in either of the two threads I saw (it was claimed a third was up for sale), for obvious reasons one would say - as it would impact the sale.
Would that be deemed a lack of transparency on the part of the seller in the same vein as not overtly mentioning the number of plays a pin has had, or the fact it was routed, to use the IM example?
In the case of Rav’s Alien, the fact the remake wasn’t mentioned, potentially inducing a buyer into a sale is - in my opinion - on the same level as not mentioning that TZ has various mechs that make it potentially more difficult to maintain than other ones. In other words, it’s not a lie or deception, really. When do comments cross a line from being stuff that is genuinely seeking to protect a buyer, and one that just potentially trash the sale for no good reason? Surely we have to assume that buyers of any pin are doing some due diligence before handing the money over.
There’s definitely a grey area with this I think.
^^^^ Good point, or the Woz thing with the boards has + will catch peeps out.
Expert sellers will hopefully mention this / upgraded etc....but some amateurs may fail, I could imagine the sales thread going up and forum members chomping at the bit.
Most would hope the perspective buyer had done their research, like someone buying a vehicle on auto trader. If you’ve done your research in advance, it will save heartache later.....you will know the MGF has Head Gasket issues-for example.
Expert sellers will hopefully mention this / upgraded etc....but some amateurs may fail, I could imagine the sales thread going up and forum members chomping at the bit.
Most would hope the perspective buyer had done their research, like someone buying a vehicle on auto trader. If you’ve done your research in advance, it will save heartache later.....you will know the MGF has Head Gasket issues-for example.
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Deleted member 2463
there is no grey area. Honesty is always the best policy.
If the machine has had ongoing, specific issues, fine, mention them. If you've done some large scale repair work in one area, sure I'd expect to see it mentioned. And the history of it, if you know it.
What I don't expect is every Zaccaria that comes up for sale to mention that mechs are difficult to obtain, or that Fathom plastics are hard to come by, or that TZ clock optos are a prick, or that TOM eddy boards are flaky, or that Diner cups are unobtainium. It would be unrealistic to expect a buyer to list all the potential (as yet unrealised) gotchas of a particular pin in the for sale thread. That's part of the fun of owning them.
Edit - I just realised you can buy CPR Fathom plastics, but you get my point.
What I don't expect is every Zaccaria that comes up for sale to mention that mechs are difficult to obtain, or that Fathom plastics are hard to come by, or that TZ clock optos are a prick, or that TOM eddy boards are flaky, or that Diner cups are unobtainium. It would be unrealistic to expect a buyer to list all the potential (as yet unrealised) gotchas of a particular pin in the for sale thread. That's part of the fun of owning them.
Edit - I just realised you can buy CPR Fathom plastics, but you get my point.
OP
OP
New classifieds will have feedback, so people can see feedback from previous sellers
New classifieds will have feedback, so people can see feedback from previous sellers
This will be great, I'm sure. I hope it's just not a whole other level of sh1tstorm for you to sort out @Paul !!
That was the point I was trying to make. I don’t see it as dishonest not to list those things on a FS thread.
My 2p from being a seller and a buyer of a few machines in the last couple of years.
When someone does comment even with nothing relevant it puts your post back to the top of the news feed which might mean someone else might then see it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When someone does comment even with nothing relevant it puts your post back to the top of the news feed which might mean someone else might then see it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I hear the value from helping newbies with the right sort of questions but does it has to be an open format? I know we recognise this as a forum and that word means “ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged” but that states particular issue and in Rome, if you went off piste, you would be kicked out.
If you go into a Ford dealership and suggest openly people should buy Volkswagen you would also be asked to leave.
Do people really see it as censorship if they are asked to stick to the topic on the sales thread even though they are free to open another thread and share their opinion?
Would we be having this chat if we didn’t want your opinion
If you go into a Ford dealership and suggest openly people should buy Volkswagen you would also be asked to leave.
Do people really see it as censorship if they are asked to stick to the topic on the sales thread even though they are free to open another thread and share their opinion?
Would we be having this chat if we didn’t want your opinion
Say someone advertised a TAF for 4 grand. No matter how many folk slagged off the game, how common it was, how it was the third one that week, how overrated it was, how TAF remake might be coming out .....
It would sell.
Advertise the same thing for 7 grand and it probably won't.
Folk are far too precious about comments on sale threads IMHO. If their business model relies on hoping to find a naive sucker that overpays for stuff they do not understand then shame on the seller.
As a friendly forum we should facilitate fair priced sales - not stiffing noobs.
I want to buy a Tomcat or MB right now. No amount of inane/ tangential/ amusing/ factual/ I vouch for the seller/ I used to own that game/ I have a spare plastic set comments on a sale thread will dissuade me from wanting to buy one of these titles.
For me it is all about game condition, price and who the seller is.
It would sell.
Advertise the same thing for 7 grand and it probably won't.
Folk are far too precious about comments on sale threads IMHO. If their business model relies on hoping to find a naive sucker that overpays for stuff they do not understand then shame on the seller.
As a friendly forum we should facilitate fair priced sales - not stiffing noobs.
I want to buy a Tomcat or MB right now. No amount of inane/ tangential/ amusing/ factual/ I vouch for the seller/ I used to own that game/ I have a spare plastic set comments on a sale thread will dissuade me from wanting to buy one of these titles.
For me it is all about game condition, price and who the seller is.
OP
OP
Few of us have a business model, let alone one that tries to find a naive sucker, that isn't why some people chose to use another platforms to sell. Most are folks who do not want the agro of other people taking the threads as fair game.
I would like to protect new people from buying mistakes but also not put them and other people off from selling with us, which is what the current way is doing.
No one has answered, and I suspect can answer definitively, how far a seller should go in describing their pin.
People seem to be conflating lies of omission and misrepresentation, i.e. deceptive practices, with salesmanship.
If, for example, I listed a pin with a problem I knew was there but happened only after it was on for an hour or so - and left that information out of the sale thread, I’d consider that to be wrong and deceptive.
On the other hand if I was selling TZ on here, especially on here in fact where I’m assuming some knowledge, I probably wouldn’t be saying “TZ’s have finicky prox sensors, and the clock and gumball machine are not the easiest thing to service, actually if you’re new to pinball you shouldn’t buy this at all”. I’d assume someone is vaguely aware of this sort of stuff, and that pinball in general assumes some maintenance requirement.
If you’re going to go to that extreme you might as well list every problem you’ve encountered even if you fixed it at some point in the past.
Again, in the case of Rav and Alien - is it his responsibility to clue people in about the remake, and the impact that might have on the value? The implication of the comments on his thread seemed to be that people thought it was overpriced to the point of being a scam? We’ve already had people calling it “a £4k game”, is it fair for them to make those comments on sale threads?
Is he obliged to point out that the parts for it might be difficult to find? When I sold Tron should I have listed every part that was unobtainium, like the ramps?
I think members chipping in on value is particularly fraught with risk since people’s affinity to pins colour their opinion one way or the other. To use the TAF example, if I was selling a TAF I would not appreciate someone coming in saying “dunno how these are £5k” or words to that effect, when they have and do sell for that amount. I also don’t think it’s “ripping people off” by selling a TAF for £5k, just because another one might have been sold for less at some point. With condition and “mint” being s subjective as it is, I’m not sure value can be objectively assessed.
So long as there is open discussion on sale threads I think this debate will always exist and be unresolved.
People seem to be conflating lies of omission and misrepresentation, i.e. deceptive practices, with salesmanship.
If, for example, I listed a pin with a problem I knew was there but happened only after it was on for an hour or so - and left that information out of the sale thread, I’d consider that to be wrong and deceptive.
On the other hand if I was selling TZ on here, especially on here in fact where I’m assuming some knowledge, I probably wouldn’t be saying “TZ’s have finicky prox sensors, and the clock and gumball machine are not the easiest thing to service, actually if you’re new to pinball you shouldn’t buy this at all”. I’d assume someone is vaguely aware of this sort of stuff, and that pinball in general assumes some maintenance requirement.
If you’re going to go to that extreme you might as well list every problem you’ve encountered even if you fixed it at some point in the past.
Again, in the case of Rav and Alien - is it his responsibility to clue people in about the remake, and the impact that might have on the value? The implication of the comments on his thread seemed to be that people thought it was overpriced to the point of being a scam? We’ve already had people calling it “a £4k game”, is it fair for them to make those comments on sale threads?
Is he obliged to point out that the parts for it might be difficult to find? When I sold Tron should I have listed every part that was unobtainium, like the ramps?
I think members chipping in on value is particularly fraught with risk since people’s affinity to pins colour their opinion one way or the other. To use the TAF example, if I was selling a TAF I would not appreciate someone coming in saying “dunno how these are £5k” or words to that effect, when they have and do sell for that amount. I also don’t think it’s “ripping people off” by selling a TAF for £5k, just because another one might have been sold for less at some point. With condition and “mint” being s subjective as it is, I’m not sure value can be objectively assessed.
So long as there is open discussion on sale threads I think this debate will always exist and be unresolved.
Has there been a noticeable downturn in number of pins sold on here? I'd think not. If people are genuinely put off by the folks on here I'd suggest the internet as a whole probably isn't for them.
Rather than stifling often useful discussion, just lay out some very clear rules about sales threads. Implement a ban be it temporary or otherwise for repeat offenders and get someone to mod the sales section specifically. Problem solved