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Haggis….. that’s all folks……

DRD said:
What, remaking Fathoms and charging ten grand for 1981 design games with black box technology isn't a sustainable business plan ??

Shocked. Shocked I tell you.

Very sorry to all those who get stung by this. But old Ballys go forever - buy real ones
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Would have been cheaper to remake them exactly as the 1981 design. All boards are easily available from multiple vendors. Nothing to re-invent so zero r&d cost.

OK, you want beter sound and light show you say? Go buy a stern, cheaper!

Actually I'm been working on an RGB upgrade to bally/stern SS games. It's a real back burner project for me, and I put it on hold when haggis announced, so I might get motivated to pick it up again!
 
AlanJ said:
Would have been cheaper to remake them exactly as the 1981 design. All boards are easily available from multiple vendors. Nothing to re-invent so zero r&d cost.
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but using FAST works out cheaper. no transformer, less wiring, cheap pc or arduino. Then charge twice what they should do and wonder why they don't sell.
Not had the usual "making pinball is hard" yet. No it isn't. No harder than making anything else unless you have no manufacturing experience.
 
Also doing a remake using FAST for £10K is not that unrealistic....

£8,333 without the vat
£1000 to the company selling it (guestimate !!!!!!!)
£200 shipping costs
£1000 electronics - FAST pinball boardset with power supplies, screens, displays (just a guess again).
£750 to produce a playfield.
£1500 playfield assemblies coils etc....
Wages
Rent (if they pay it)
Profit (that every company needs to make).
Licensing charge.
 
Sorry to dissent, but I think it is hard to make a pinball machine.

Warping playfields ?
Poor/ inconsistent wood that screws don't bite into properly ?
Crap clearcoat that is either wet, pooling or marks easily
Wiring looms rubbing on mechs
Mechs that wear out .....

Even something as basic as a standup target was better engineered on an 80s Williams than on my NIB Dialed it. The central rivet was a mm or two lower on the newer game so it helped to generate air balls. Even the new foam was also inferior on the standups, also the beer seal.

The proper old manufacturers - Bally/ Williams/ Gottlieb/ Old Stern ...... built up spec sheets and approved suppliers over decades. The games evolved organically and each new title benefitted from millions of plays on those that went before. They were in real competition with one another and commercial arcades did not want maintenance headaches.

They sent pre-production games out into the wild in busy arcades for Beta Testing before properly releasing new titles. Everything was stronger/ designed to last/ consistent US supply chains - just look at the drop target mech on a Bally Fathom to see what build quality these games had - metal thickness, number of components, engineering integrity.

Nowadays its cost cutting, Chinese sub contractors, iffy quality control, untested, chopping and changing suppliers .....
 
DRD said:
Sorry to dissent, but I think it is hard to make a pinball machine.

Warping playfields ?
Poor/ inconsistent wood that screws don't bite into properly ?
Crap clearcoat that is either wet, pooling or marks easily
Wiring looms rubbing on mechs
Mechs that wear out .....

Even something as basic as a standup target was better engineered on an 80s Williams than on my NIB Dialed it. The central rivet was a mm or two lower on the newer game so it helped to generate air balls. Even the new foam was also inferior on the standups, also the beer seal.

The proper old manufacturers - Bally/ Williams/ Gottlieb/ Old Stern ...... built up spec sheets and approved suppliers over decades. The games evolved organically and each new title benefitted from millions of plays on those that went before. They were in real competition with one another and commercial arcades did not want maintenance headaches.

They sent pre-production games out into the wild in busy arcades for Beta Testing before properly releasing new titles. Everything was stronger/ designed to last/ consistent US supply chains - just look at the drop target mech on a Bally Fathom to see what build quality these games had - metal thickness, number of components, engineering integrity.

Nowadays its cost cutting, Chines sub contractors, iffy quality control, untested, chopping and changing suppliers .....
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Fair points....
Haggis PFs arent clear coated either. They did use good ply.....
Also unsure of what Haggis subcontracted out.

You can not really compare an 80s/90s Bally Williams to a modern stern/spooky/JJP. No argurments that the old ones are better made, and easier to keep going.

I put up my post as if you gave me £10 and told me to make a fathom I would probably stuggle.

If you said refurb and old one then of course it would be easier and cheaper. Like you said - the mechs will still work!!!!
 
Haggis playfields come with a playfield protector fitted.

The remake is basically two games in one, the original Fathom code and the revisited code. Just swap between the two by holding a flipper button in to select before starting a game. Almost everyone plays the revisited code as most people know how to play or have played the original game.

The revisited code gives the game a very TNA feel to it, with pounding music and sounds, plus the amazing GI/playfield controlled lighting.

Downsides? - The code (both original and revisited) has bugs, way more than a released game should have (very embarrassing to the coding profession) , the playfield is very heavy due to the metal apron and LCDs embedded in it and all three haggis flipper bats boke on the shaft and have needed replacing. oh and no playfield arm to rest the playfield on the front of the cabinet - not that the original had this option anyway, in fact that was the really big downside of the original almost impossible to work on the rear of the playfield without moving it to the other hinge points and it was too heavy to move on your own thanks to the drop target mechs.
 
I’m guessing he is from Scottish descent . Damien Lewis Hartin sounds quite Scottish. And they did do a game called Celts.
It’s a shame , he seemed a decent guy with massive enthusiasm for pinball when he started out . But then so did Heighway .
Got carried away it seems and then ultimately blown away by events.
 
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I think there is a thread on here somewhere with someone predicting this was going to happen, something along the lines of suggesting they were using the deposits for the Centaurs to fund finishing the Fathoms.
 
Sgt GrizZ said:
I’m guessing he is from Scottish descent . Damien Lewis sounds quite Scottish. And they did do a game called Celts.
It’s a shame , he seemed a decent guy with massive enthusiasm for pinball when he started out . But then so did Heighway .
Got carried away it seems and then ultimately blown away by events.
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Again rather than using stock parts they over engineered certain aspects of the build. If it's not broke don't fix it i say.
 
Sgt GrizZ said:
I’m guessing he is from Scottish descent . Damien Lewis sounds quite Scottish. And they did do a game called Celts.
It’s a shame , he seemed a decent guy with massive enthusiasm for pinball when he started out . But then so did Heighway .
Got carried away it seems and then ultimately blown away by events.
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Damian Hartin was the guy not Damien Lewis - he's an actor, not a failed pinball company owner - ha ha
 
I once contacted them and asked if I could buy playfield mechanisms in quantity.

Apparently taking goods they already had developed and selling them to people for money was not part of this business model 🤷‍♂️
 
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