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Energy prices - gone nuts.

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Neil McRae said:
Wouldn't it be ironic if a certain person was too much of a chicken **** to state what he thinks and was so much of a chicken **** and so wrong about all that he wrote that he wouldn't actually post someone's name. I'm also pleased I'm not your accountant I couldn't stand the stench.

and I have a jacket given to me by Gene Cernan.

Neil.
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Chicken ****! Far from it Neil!

Why have YOU jumped in on this so much, the baiter baited? 😂

You clearly haven’t met my accountant, she certainly doesn’t smell, she’s very nice actually, and DOES know what she’s talking about rather than spreading drivel and misleading information.

Congratulations on your jacket 👍

Chris.
 
Going back on topic :D

One thing worth mentioning, depending how your hot water is setup you can also pretty much turn gas off over summer months as well, so it’s not just electric savings but gas as well, it all adds up pretty quickly, Neil Iv done my own “rough” calculations and I have it at like 7-10 years. Way prices are going it’s more towards 7 but can’t 100% say until have a years worth of data.

I just don’t want to look back in 10 years and think **** me I could be paying **** all right now but instead I’m being bent over the rest of my life by the energy company’s :D

It is a gamble but one worth taking I think :D
 
I've had my 4Kw system 10 years and have generated 30000Kw in that time. I'm on the old FIT scheme where you get paid a certain amount for each Kw generated and a lesser amount per Kw for deemed export - by todays standards it's a bit of a clunky system as you don't know what you actually use from what's being generated or how much you're exporting or indeed importing.
I would estimate that it paid for itself a couple of years ago so probably been enjoying free electricity since, at least until prices went mad
 
astyy said:
Did I hear the news right, the price cap rise prediction for Oct 1st is now +78% o_O

MoneyWeek | Investment advice, analysis, finance news

Intelligent, easy-to-read analysis of the financial news, with practical investment advice and share tips from the UK's best selling financial magazine.
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Glad I fixed when I did, but a year ago I wouldnt have thought it was a good deal being triple what I was paying then.

But this information from the BBC news site makes you sick "British Gas owner Centrica said adjusted operating profit for the six months ending in June rose to £1.34bn from £262m a year earlier."
 
I have tried to read up on the topic of lithium batteries not being good for the environment. All material mining has a local environmental impact, including the ones we currently rely on like oil, gas, coal, metals. Transportation will add a local and global impact, as does any manufacturing process to turn it into the end product. All of this can be done well or badly and right now, the desire to mine lithium is causing the 'white gold rush'. This is leading to a lot of people motivated by money, and not the environment or local communities, doing whatever they can to extract as much as they can. And there are a lot of stories about these practices and how they destroy the local environment but they are not the only way the metal is mined, some are better than others.
Some car and battery manufacturers have stated they will buy only from responsible organisations but I am not entirely sure we can trust car manufacturer to tell the entire truth.

There has been a lot of opinions on motor shows and social media that say the environmental impact of the mining and the manufacturing process of lithium outweighs the benefits from electric vehicles. Clarkson did this on Top Gear over a decade ago. My view is that this is often because they value and enjoy fossil fuelled vehicles, I know many petrol heads who have no interest in thinking electric cars are the future. It wasn't a scientific view which seems to say that lithium batteries and cars using them are likely to be environmentally sound over the course of their usable life and more so if we can make the mining of them sustainable. But we also need to work out how to recycle the material for future re-use as there isn't enough for the electric revolution to work.

As for hydrogen cars, I can only find hydrogen fuel cell cars. Which are electric cars, with a lithium battery, that is charged by a the hydrogen fuel cell.

I may be bias. I do appreciate ICE and own 2 cars, 2 motorbikes, a JCB, and a lot of petrol powered garden tools. But I think electric motors can replace a lot of those and will have a benefit to the environmental. I did consider converting my classic VW to electric but am now more likely to buy another and do that.
 
'Bolivia is home to 21 million tonnes out of the 89 million tonnes that make up the world's known lithium resources, according to the U.S. Geological Survey, although none of it is listed as commercially viable.'

Was mentioned on Rise of the Continents
 
astyy said:
Did I hear the news right, the price cap rise prediction for Oct 1st is now +78% o_O

MoneyWeek | Investment advice, analysis, finance news

Intelligent, easy-to-read analysis of the financial news, with practical investment advice and share tips from the UK's best selling financial magazine.
www.themoneyedit.com www.themoneyedit.com
Click to expand...
78% on top of what it is now is mental, it’s gonna financially cripple a lot of people :(
 
That's the idea by the looks of it. Mass non-payment like the poll tax and utilities brought in house. As daft as it looks it's probably done by design.
 
I was considering how these recent hikes equate cumulatively o_O

1st Oct 21 +12% +12%
1st Apr 22 +54% +72%
1st Oct 22 +78% +207% * predicted
 
Earlier on in this thread, people who use domestic oil (instead of gas) for heating their house reported the meteoric rise in cost when the war in Ukraine started.
I saw a graph today which showed that this was mostly a peak with the current cost having plateaued at a much more 'reasonable' value. See below and https://www.boilerjuice.com/heating-oil-prices-england/. The current cost hovers around the £1/litre (whereas it was more like 40-50p/litre several years back).
So maybe the price of domestic oil has doubled in recent years.
Whereas the price of gas has tripled (+207% is tripling the original cost) in the last year.
So maybe using domestic oil isn't that bad after all.
Is that the perception of people using domestic oil?
I am only asking as we are contemplating moving house and the places that we are looking at are all heated with domestic oil. And this thread has scared the s**t out of me on the running costs of a house using domestic oil...

1659105054578.png
 
domlouis said:
Earlier on in this thread, people who use domestic oil (instead of gas) for heating their house reported the meteoric rise in cost when the war in Ukraine started.
I saw a graph today which showed that this was mostly a peak with the current cost having plateaued at a much more 'reasonable' value. See below and https://www.boilerjuice.com/heating-oil-prices-england/. The current cost hovers around the £1/litre (whereas it was more like 40-50p/litre several years back).
So maybe the price of domestic oil has doubled in recent years.
Whereas the price of gas has tripled (+207% is tripling the original cost) in the last year.
So maybe using domestic oil isn't that bad after all.
Is that the perception of people using domestic oil?
I am only asking as we are contemplating moving house and the places that we are looking at are all heated with domestic oil. And this thread has scared the s**t out of me on the running costs of a house using domestic oil...

View attachment 176897
Click to expand...
I was under the impression (I've not checked this tbh though) that town gas was historically on a par or cheaper than oil, and tanked gas - used in rural locations off the mains - was very expensive. I've always had an oil boiler as there is no option for town gas.
 
So panels were fitted yesterday and one of them was DOA (smashed on the pallet) along with the fact I’m told battery’s delayed till as they put it “maybe mid august” this is fair enough but then to be asked for 75% of total balance had me talking to a succession of staff, then supervisors and finally to be told the manager will be ringing me to sort this out! I told em unless it’s paddy pimblett coming to sort me out I’m not paying till full installation and signed off with the grid.
It’s amazing how the next day the manager rang to say they had just taken delivery of the battery’s and the broken panel will be installed along with them 1st thing Monday morning 😂

420BE3B6-0B99-49E7-B45A-55B746D9FA68.jpeg5F7D60CA-9CDD-4C63-A9DD-C3D18962ECAE.jpeg

Anyhoo 1st full day and quite overcast until 1 but then 50/50 cloud on and off and here’s result.
5.13 KW max which probs ok seeing as 1
Panel down atm.
FD7EA502-51C2-416E-A242-3A59394F23DE.jpeg

Two pins switched on and being played both JM and GZ while Gabe played on his PS5 and all the usual gubbins like fridge freezer / standby equipment. Lots going to waste as no batteries or feed in tarif yet however I had wife load up washing machine and I pressed go in afternoon which I’m told will be the norm now.
187122F7-4601-4E11-A517-9A5D06E739F6.jpeg

Sun went down with Total for day at 18KWH again most of it wasted to grid
F9F3E2AE-FA42-411C-B2C6-D508478F766D.jpeg

Lots of graphs and stuff to play with and still need to figure best way to top up car albeit has 200mi in tank ATM.
EEEFCBD7-A958-4D36-87B4-C0BD5AB053A3.jpeg

Roll on Monday when battery’s fitted so I can hopefully get some benefit.
 
Colywobbles said:
So panels were fitted yesterday and one of them was DOA (smashed on the pallet) along with the fact I’m told battery’s delayed till as they put it “maybe mid august” this is fair enough but then to be asked for 75% of total balance had me talking to a succession of staff, then supervisors and finally to be told the manager will be ringing me to sort this out! I told em unless it’s paddy pimblett coming to sort me out I’m not paying till full installation and signed off with the grid.
It’s amazing how the next day the manager rang to say they had just taken delivery of the battery’s and the broken panel will be installed along with them 1st thing Monday morning 😂

View attachment 176910View attachment 176909

Anyhoo 1st full day and quite overcast until 1 but then 50/50 cloud on and off and here’s result.
5.13 KW max which probs ok seeing as 1
Panel down atm.
View attachment 176911

Two pins switched on and being played both JM and GZ while Gabe played on his PS5 and all the usual gubbins like fridge freezer / standby equipment. Lots going to waste as no batteries or feed in tarif yet however I had wife load up washing machine and I pressed go in afternoon which I’m told will be the norm now.
View attachment 176916

Sun went down with Total for day at 18KWH again most of it wasted to grid
View attachment 176914

Lots of graphs and stuff to play with and still need to figure best way to top up car albeit has 200mi in tank ATM.
View attachment 176915

Roll on Monday when battery’s fitted so I can hopefully get some benefit.
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Very nice, looks pretty much like system i had installed, but more panels! (jealous LOL)
Enjoy watching the app 24/7 :D and screaming at your partner when they put on the washing machine at 8pm :D (but with 2 batteries this wont effect you as much hehe)

Was pretty good day in Bristol as well :)
1659132828075.png
 
Colywobbles said:
So panels were fitted yesterday and one of them was DOA (smashed on the pallet) along with the fact I’m told battery’s delayed till as they put it “maybe mid august” this is fair enough but then to be asked for 75% of total balance had me talking to a succession of staff, then supervisors and finally to be told the manager will be ringing me to sort this out! I told em unless it’s paddy pimblett coming to sort me out I’m not paying till full installation and signed off with the grid.
It’s amazing how the next day the manager rang to say they had just taken delivery of the battery’s and the broken panel will be installed along with them 1st thing Monday morning 😂

View attachment 176910View attachment 176909

Anyhoo 1st full day and quite overcast until 1 but then 50/50 cloud on and off and here’s result.
5.13 KW max which probs ok seeing as 1
Panel down atm.
View attachment 176911

Two pins switched on and being played both JM and GZ while Gabe played on his PS5 and all the usual gubbins like fridge freezer / standby equipment. Lots going to waste as no batteries or feed in tarif yet however I had wife load up washing machine and I pressed go in afternoon which I’m told will be the norm now.
View attachment 176916

Sun went down with Total for day at 18KWH again most of it wasted to grid
View attachment 176914

Lots of graphs and stuff to play with and still need to figure best way to top up car albeit has 200mi in tank ATM.
View attachment 176915

Roll on Monday when battery’s fitted so I can hopefully get some benefit.
Click to expand...
Also have you got a hot water tank? Or are you combi?
 
russdx1 said:
Also have you got a hot water tank? Or are you combi?
Click to expand...
Yep on a combi.
A mate has just installed one on his system which is a Holliday cottage he rents out and said it’s almost self sufficient now as guests out most of the day and getting back to a full battery and got water each night.
It may be an option but no1 for me ATM is to see how the house batterys and car charging goes as those along with me being in all day usually messing on Bertha will probably leave me short anyways.
 
Colywobbles said:
Yep on a combi.
A mate has just installed one on his system which is a Holliday cottage he rents out and said it’s almost self sufficient now as guests out most of the day and getting back to a full battery and got water each night.
It may be an option but no1 for me ATM is to see how the house batterys and car charging goes as those along with me being in all day usually messing on Bertha will probably leave me short anyways.
Click to expand...
Be interesting to see what your usage graph looks like with the laser cutter running, how much much current do those things draw?

I wanted to add another 400w panel as got extra space on garage to bring system to 5.4kw but the inverter is the 5kw one so can’t add any more panels :( would need to get a new inverter as well, not worth it for just 1 more panel. Am tempted to get another 5.8kw battery though.
 
Check the inverter specs, it will likely take the panel but limit the output to 5kW. But the losses in the system and the reduction of efficiency on hot days, how many times did you flat line at 5kW now?
 
Calimori said:
Check the inverter specs, it will likely take the panel but limit the output to 5kW. But the losses in the system and the reduction of efficiency on hot days, how many times did you flat line at 5kW now?
Click to expand...
Ah good shout I may have read wrong limit, ie output not input.

On a pure sunny day no clouds it will flatline at 4Kw but on partially sunny day seen it spike at 5.6kw
 
domlouis said:
Earlier on in this thread, people who use domestic oil (instead of gas) for heating their house reported the meteoric rise in cost when the war in Ukraine started.
I saw a graph today which showed that this was mostly a peak with the current cost having plateaued at a much more 'reasonable' value. See below and https://www.boilerjuice.com/heating-oil-prices-england/. The current cost hovers around the £1/litre (whereas it was more like 40-50p/litre several years back).
So maybe the price of domestic oil has doubled in recent years.
Whereas the price of gas has tripled (+207% is tripling the original cost) in the last year.
So maybe using domestic oil isn't that bad after all.
Is that the perception of people using domestic oil?
I am only asking as we are contemplating moving house and the places that we are looking at are all heated with domestic oil. And this thread has scared the s**t out of me on the running costs of a house using domestic oil...

View attachment 176897
Click to expand...
Domestic oil was 30p a litre in 2007, and climbed each year until it got to about 50p a litre 5 years ago, with some peaks during higher demand (domestic oil costs more in the winter when y0u actually need it. Early in lockdown it went down to 30p a litre as there was no demand. Your graph doesn't show that as it doesn't go back far enough, but I reckon I averaged 40p to 50p a litre in the 5 years pre covid (not 65p at start of your graph).

I use a local oil delivery company and know the Alex, the delivery driver / co-owner quite well. They maxed out at about 105p for about a week near start of Ukraine war whilst others were fleecing customers for £1.50 plus. But my company always refuses new customers when there is a shortage. They said they had hundreds of potential new customers were calling them when prices maxed out and regular customers who would usually take 500 litres at a time were insisting on full tanks of 1,000 litres plus because they were scared that the price would go higher. Alex worked for 3 weeks solid and long days just to keep up with extra demand from regular customers. Domestic heating oil price is driven by supply / demand and there are no price caps / controls and the spike in the graph just shows the fleecing of those that decided to panic buy an the back of press speculation that prices would continue to rocket.

And I wouldn't bother with buying groups or boilerjuice which claim to save a few pence per litre but are guarantee to fleece you or not want to deliver when demand is high. Just find a local supplier that will value your custom and reliably deliver. for a fair price. When it snows here some of the companies just will not deliver - we learnt that in the early days as noobies when we ran out of oil in MINUS 5-10 degrees and couldn't get a delivery for 10 days. No heating, no hot water, no aga. Kids were 5 and 6 at the time. No fun.

The most I have paid this year is 87p, about 3 weeks after the spike. I expect it will go up a bit again in September/ October as demand increases as people get their tanks filled for winter. It's best to keep an eye on the prices and make sure you get your tank filled to the brim when cheap and don't join in the stupidity of panic buying when the press are just scaremongering for a story (like they did a few months back).
 
Calimori said:
Check the inverter specs, it will likely take the panel but limit the output to 5kW. But the losses in the system and the reduction of efficiency on hot days, how many times did you flat line at 5kW now?
Click to expand...
Max DC input from PV is 7500w so I’m probably ok to add on another 400w panel onto my 4800w setup would still remain under even on the cloud spikes.

Wonder how it works with certification ie even though it’s just plugging in a panel you probably need a certified engineer to do it? Then need to update the MCS cert to say it’s a 5200 system not 4800.

Might be best to call someone who knows what they are on about :D would be cool if possible though.
 
So, decided to have a go at trying to work out as accurately as I can, the payback time on a solar system.

First I looked at current usage so I plugged my current usage into a spreadsheet

it’s not a good read.

i’m on a fixed tariff that ends 7th oct, so going to get a double hike when the price cap rises in Oct again.

Based on current predictions my bill is going to rise from £410 a month to £1,263 a month. Absolute Madness. I was moaning when it went from £250 to £410 last October.

Heavy gas user as the house c/h, hot water and pin room ufh all gas and it’s a big house.

Split is £8,500 gas and £6,700 electric. Electric usage is 13,000 kwh per year.

So next onto cost up a system and then work out saving.

System cost I guess at £15-20k. let’s say £20k to get as much roof coverage and battery capacity as possible.?

I’m in all day most days. 6 fridges and freezers on all time. hot tub in summer months. quite a few computers on all time, lights on a lot in the kitchen as it’s a dark room and spend a lot of time in there, washing machine seems to be on all the time. tumble dryer in winter but washing line in summer.

if i’m using 13,000 kwh a year then that’s like 35.62 a day or 1.5 an hour on average. so i guess peak will be 2-3X that = 4.5kw

What i can’t really figure is how much i’ll generate and use?

I know that if system costs £20,000 and i was generating everything i need and not using any from the grid, the breakeven would be about 5.5 years on current price cap and 3.5 years on the predicted oct price cap, but of course it won’t work like that. i’ve figured it won’t even cover 50%, but if it was 50% then b/e is 11 / 7 years, but if it only saved 25% it would be 22 /14 years.

So i need to really home in on how much you can actually save?
 
AlanJ said:
So i need to really home in on how much you can actually save?
Click to expand...
I came to the conclusion that it's pretty much impossible to even guess - i.e. all the calcs you did are based on an absolute extreme of price, the likes of which has never been seen before. It's 100% guesswork as to whether that will last 1, 2, 5 years before dropping back, or last forever. So bearing in mind it a) needs a lot of up front investment, b) is disruption and hassle to install, c) the government will likely subsidise it at some point in the medium term, and d) it still seems like a bit of a hobbyist/enthusiast type activity to me, all these graphs and constant monitoring, etc (I just want my electricity to seamlessly work, I'm totally not interested in anything else), I decided not to bother.
 
As a user of a system, my 4.2kW system is actually more like 3.7kW as it is split sides. Do 22kW on a great day. 15kW on a good day.
It is on track to generate 3700kW a year.
At 0.29 a unit that will save £1091 a year
At 0.53 (possible Oct figure) £1972 a year
That is assuming I use all my generation.
Your £20k is going to get you a lot more.
 
I'm close to pulling trigger on a system with battery. I'm aiming to cover 75% of my annual usage this way and of the belief that the sun will be low and ****e for 3 months of the year so I'll be on the grid, if I'm proved wrong and we get some good weather then total bonus. I can add an extra battery if needed of EV fairly easily and more panels should I wish. Worth a punt, it if pays back in a decade then I'm laughing from then on...
 
Arv said:
That's the idea by the looks of it. Mass non-payment like the poll tax and utilities brought in house. As daft as it looks it's probably done by design.
Click to expand...

There's even a campaign for it. Will certainly be 'interesting' if it takes hold. Would probably send even more energy companies under : https://dontpay.uk/
 
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