For Sale American Pinball new UK Distributor

[myPinballs]

Thanks, @Big Phil.

I’d wait for the talk, @myPinballs, as what I’ve written’s not close to a summary

David Fix was talking for close to two hours (I left after ~ 90 minutes when he started running a trivia quiz to win AP merch), covering quite a lot of ground in the process.

He spent a comparative lot of time talking about BBQ Challenge, despite admitting upfront this is was a pretty American-centric theme that probably didn’t resonate that well with a British audience. If I were him, I’d have spent the time talking about GTF (but, then again, BBQ Challenge is AP’s new pin).

He also addressed some of the Pinside concerns about AP, including rumours they were going bust and/or their parent company Aimtron were about to pull the plug. He said Aimtron see AP as a growing concern that doesn’t have to make a profit every year, provided it’s on a general upward profit trend.

Also, he spent a lot of time on:

• What AP were doing to improve quality control (there’d been some complaints about the tank target mounting and a batch of magnetised balls);
• His work on building a strong team since he joined the company in 2020, and also;
• Addressing concerns about future repairability in light of the recent failure of Haggis Pinball. He talked about industry-standard parts, a commitment to long-term repairability and backward compatibility, his drive to improve customer service and have distributors stock replacement parts, etc.

Much of the QC stuff was relevant to people in the room - he was in audience dialogue for several minutes with @mission65 and @Mike Parkins who’d been stung by Heighway Pinball’s Full Throttle having a high percentage of non-industry-standard parts. David Fix apparently himself owns a Full Throttle.

He spent some time talking about high licensing costs and restrictions too, explaining that AP is focusing on unlicensed themes as a means of keeping costs down, as that’s what Bally-Williams did starting out. He claims an unnamed company had to pay something like £2 million just to get the door open on the Harry Potter license, with (presumably) higher fees for individual sound/character assets, and that’s a big deal when a pin already costs £1.5 million in research and development. He said even cheaper licences can cost £100k upwards to open a conversation with the licensor, and then there are further costs if they want things changing.

He talked a lot without much chance for questions, which was a bit of a shame. I asked how AP chooses their themes, and IIRC Houdini/GTF were chosen because magic- and space/B-movie themes traditionally sell well in pinball, and Oktoberfest/BBQ Challenge were because employees working on the projects were fans.

As I knew, going in, it was going to be a marketing pitch, I was listening to what he both chose to talk about and also *didn’t* talk about.

My takeaway was that he evidently views his buyer base (currently) as big collectors. He did a quick audience quiz before the talk started, and his first question was how many people owned 5, 10, 15, 20, 100, 150+ pins. I don’t know what he was expecting, but the numbers dropped down to an embarrassed-looking @mission65 shortly after the 10-pin mark. There simply aren’t many mega-collectors here in the UK.

He also visibly name-checked the ‘death of pinball’ hypothesis, which runs that pinball sales are being sustained by a rapidly-aging cohort of nostalgia collectors and that - to recapture the magic - there needs to be work to grow the player base. I know that he’ll have pre-prepared the speech, but I found it a bit strange as Pinfest is as young demographically as I’ve seen it in the three years I’ve been attending and, although @MajesticPinball and I aren’t exactly teens, we’re visibly under-50 and were literally sat in the front row! Anyway, it didn’t land quite right - rather as if you name-checked the aging population crisis in a room full of mums and babies, and then expected everyone present to nod along…

He also didn’t mention AP’s gameplay philosophy in any substantive detail, which I found… interesting, to say the least.

That’s all I can remember off the top of my head. I believed everything he did say, and he’s visibly passionate about pinball, but I personally felt his marketing strategy was a bit off.

Man I wish I could have been there lol I still don't understand how using a 3rd party for control hardware is a good long term strategy. If they fall out with said supplier or that supplier decides to discontinue stuff, they are screwed, just like dutch pinball are to. And they don't have any of the firmware for said boards either.

 

[David retro]

Anyone looking to purchase any of the ex show American pinballs on offer at moment can come to us and get a full 1 year warranty supported by ourselves and American Pinball at no additional cost to you so buy in confidence support will be there if required

Or fancy one new in box and get our 2 year warranty
Plus all the standard extras we include
New pricing and options coming Monday

 

[Chaggers]

Did anyone or david fix mention insider connect type of platform moving forward
As whether we like it or not this gives stern the edge over their
Competitors through updates and added content
And be used a lot more ahead
Obviously this is expensive to set up and run but I always login
through home team aa it gives me things to work towards
With achievements/scores etc
Which only adds to longevity

 

[myPinballs]

Did anyone or david fix mention insider connect type of platform moving forward
As whether we like it or not this gives stern the edge over their
Competitors through updates and added content
And be used a lot more ahead
Obviously this is expensive to set up and run but I always login
through home team aa it gives me things to work towards
With achievements/scores etc
Which only adds to longevity

scorbit. at least some of their games support this

 

[SeikoKid]

I’m not as observant as others in this regarding the context in a deeper manner. I think David Fix was surprised to find I was the only AP owner in the room , especially the only GTF owner in the UK too ? but hey I enjoyed the talk and David Fix was more attentive than expected. The fact he used to work for ICE was good news too as I own a Super Kixx which he worked on during his time there.
He made the effort to talk to me privately afterwards with his wife. I simply had too much to inform him of given what was needed to be said and he was aware of most problems but seemed to think his service team were on the case so there appears to be some disconnection down the line here and he took that on board. We settled I would write a detailed email listing it all for him to address on his return

There is also the matter that I ordered a Deluxe and ended up having to purchase a LE at a considerable increase in cost after 2 proposed arrival dates failed to deliver. This was a surprise to him as they have only recently sold the last production run Deluxe. I have never felt I am privy to the actual truth of why my Deluxe model never came.. Helps to now have UK warranty now too available though its all been fine dealing with AP directly given my issues. Compared with the issues I had with TNA, this game is the latter

I have found the service of AP with delay in response. But they do respond and do sort out the problems after a few weeks more of less. I did order merch that was meant to come to Pinfest but time was too short so its being posted out but still not had the email for that yet. He has only been back 2 working days in the USA though. I will chase it up end of this week.
Im pleased that every one got to see / play GTF. It's built solid and I play it more than other games. Granted ive worked in depth with @Vimtoman to create the much needed game play mods for ball drain etc and improvement over the lucky break system and defence shield ( which David was aware of ) and along with the sound system upgrade to eliminate the shrill high end sound and Johns precision bushes to remove the slop of the flippers ( but I do that on all games regardless ) Its playing real nice now. It's missing some de bugs that centre around the ball lock and ball launch that David seems to think is a mechanical issue so once that mod arrives from AP I will know more. A couple of other things like team mode and the end report of being awarded the badges for completing modes. But its quite a hard game so non of that concerns me too much right now as ive never completed more than 1 mode
Everyone slates this game yet if you read the pinside owners club those that own it are willing to see through all that and enjoy the game for its uniqueness and fun and rate it quite highly. It helps I come from a place of seeing these games as not perfect because it actually is quite a niche thing to do - make pinball. I think there are a few car brands too that are similar in story yet people still continue with them. Depends on your angle in life I guess ?

There was no talk of player connecting, and their team play mode is also with a few bugs which they are aware of. Im happy to install Scorbit if I'm shown how to if it helps people with this? If your near me im happy for you to come and try the game to show you how it feels when its set up properly and with the game play enhancements.

 

[Pooman2084]

So apart from the wrong game delivered, the patchy support, ball hang-ups, broken mechs, mods needed to make the game play properly, trough design, flipper feel, software and sound system, it’s been great!

 

[philpalmer]

There is also the matter that I ordered a Deluxe and ended up having to purchase a LE at a considerable increase in cost after 2 proposed arrival dates failed to deliver. This was a surprise to him

He is being disingenuous as I have multiple emails from AP saying they didn’t have them available to ship “yet”. I believe you were offered a better price with reduced warranty as some people are if that’s what they want.

Phil

 

[SeikoKid]

So apart from the wrong game delivered, the patchy support, ball hang-ups, broken mechs, mods needed to make the game play properly, trough design, flipper feel, software and sound system, it’s been great!

From what I hear about Stern support its still better. Mods not necessarily needed but for me yes. Again with sound and flipper all personal. Option is there to try it for you to decide

Compare it to TNA, £10,000K for a pinball with a sound system and you get $80 speakers and amp. Problematic flipper mech that apparent on a few CE's over here and relentless re settings on leaf switches. Screws not in the board enough coming out etc etc. CE at Pinfest was showing electrical issues and another CE recently with mind numbing faults that drove the owner nuts. All fixable just dependant on how much patience you have. Which I have for the games I like.

 

[Pick Holder]

Have to be honest here - if David is taking over AP then he should really buy the UK stock from PH, then he can offer the two year warranty.

Also PH did send AP's game to Pinfest at their expense, and if David gets orders from it then doing the above would be the correct thing to do. Phil is on holiday and couldnt get to the show, but I am sure if he did go to pinfest none of this would of happened.

I do love GTF, and if I was more flush at the moment I would buy it from Phil Palmer. But if I did have that money - I would probably pref to own AFM....

Every company who make pinballs now I see horrendous things done. So much cost cutting. But I would image even a 'miss' game from Stern like Venom has sold more units than AP and Homepin put together have achieved. That is why most people I recommend them buying NIB Sterns.

The uptake on most AP games is poor. They have a couple of hits but more misses. LOV is pretty good - I enjoyed my two games and wouldnt buy one. Hoidini kept breaking down at Tilt and I was glad to see the back of it - but back then - they were on P-Roc. I do not think I have known a game on site that P-Roc has not been problematic. Houdini was a good game, but difficult for rubbish players like myself. From what I hear Oktoberfest is the best game they made. I thought it was okay but I know a couple of people who own it and they have both said its a keeper.

 

[Calimori]

Have to be honest here - if David is taking over AP then he should really buy the UK stock from PH, then he can offer the two year warranty.

Also PH did send AP's game to Pinfest at their expense, and if David gets orders from it then doing the above would be the correct thing to do. Phil is on holiday and couldnt get to the show, but I am sure if he did go to pinfest none of this would have happened.

That is not how businesses work. And David is helping in a way as he is saying people can buy up PH stock and he will help with the warranty.

 

[myPinballs]

Have to be honest here - if David is taking over AP then he should really buy the UK stock from PH, then he can offer the two year warranty.

Also PH did send AP's game to Pinfest at their expense, and if David gets orders from it then doing the above would be the correct thing to do. Phil is on holiday and couldnt get to the show, but I am sure if he did go to pinfest none of this would of happened.

I do love GTF, and if I was more flush at the moment I would buy it from Phil Palmer. But if I did have that money - I would probably pref to own AFM....

Every company who make pinballs now I see horrendous things done. So much cost cutting. But I would image even a 'miss' game from Stern like Venom has sold more units than AP and Homepin put together have achieved. That is why most people I recommend them buying NIB Sterns.

The uptake on most AP games is poor. They have a couple of hits but more misses. LOV is pretty good - I enjoyed my two games and wouldnt buy one. Hoidini kept breaking down at Tilt and I was glad to see the back of it - but back then - they were on P-Roc. I do not think I have known a game on site that P-Roc has not been problematic. Houdini was a good game, but difficult for rubbish players like myself. From what I hear Oktoberfest is the best game they made. I thought it was okay but I know a couple of people who own it and they have both said its a keeper.

They are still using p-roc as far as i know..

 

[Big Phil]

Also PH did send AP's game to Pinfest at their expense,

No they didn't. I paid for the transport of all of the AP games.

 

[Big Phil]

And not forgetting Darren Ball who did all the heavy lifting and transporting.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Have to be honest here - if David is taking over AP then he should really buy the UK stock from PH, then he can offer the two year warranty.

Also PH did send AP's game to Pinfest at their expense, and if David gets orders from it then doing the above would be the correct thing to do.

Phil has a bunch of AP games at discount currently available for sale on PinballInfo and David is kindly helping with the future warranty. Unfortunately for David, that means he’s now not going to be meeting much pent-up post-Pinfest demand for AP games in the British market because there are only 1 or 2 AP games out there, and there are currently about three for sale on PinballInfo, so why would anyone pay full price?!

Every company who make pinballs now I see horrendous things done. So much cost cutting. But I would image even a 'miss' game from Stern like Venom has sold more units than AP and Homepin put together have achieved. That is why most people I recommend them buying NIB Sterns.

I own two machines by the smaller manufacturers. With my TNA CE, I bought it directly from Spooky knowing that Scott Danesi built the core mechanisms using off-the-shelf PinballLife Bally-Williams parts, and regularly contributes to repair questions on Pinside. We’ve recently had to replace part of the upper flipper mech because the split pin worked itself loose. Did I bother speaking to Spooky about it? Nope.

More than half of our collection is old machines that are decades out of warranty and the manufacturers are long gone - so, I’m far more interested in future repairability than warranty.

I’ve had the odd problem with our Godzilla and not bothered going back to Phil because it was easy to fix, and I’m not waiting around for a manufacturer to get back with a fix for the problem when my husband (or I) can just take the pin apart. I even contacted JJP directly about our torn side art. In honesty, the only time I’d go back to Phil is if a pin was a dud on arrival, if the problem was super-weird/complex, or to avoid paying for something expensive like a Node board. Not because Phil is a bad person (he’s a super guy), but simply because Bally/Williams-type parts are inexpensive and it’s usually just faster to repair the pin ourselves.

The uptake on most AP games is poor. They have a couple of hits but more misses. LOV is pretty good - I enjoyed my two games and wouldnt buy one. Hoidini kept breaking down at Tilt and I was glad to see the back of it - but back then - they were on P-Roc. I do not think I have known a game on site that P-Roc has not been problematic. Houdini was a good game, but difficult for rubbish players like myself.

No, Houdini’s just a s**t game. I’ve written a literal essay on Pinside about how it’s badly designed, not difficult. Short version, pins should have a variety of shots of different difficulties with the scores linked to the risk/reward of each shot, and if every shot is super-tight then it’s a ‘blah blah blah’ (to quote my seven year old about a completely different pin) experience. Also, if you’re going to design in a lot of tight shots, then you sure as heck should be making a shooter’s pin all about skill and accuracy, and shoving three magnets close to the flippers is the opposite to that.

From what I hear Oktoberfest is the best game they made. I thought it was okay but I know a couple of people who own it and they have both said it’s a keeper.

Oktoberfest is ‘utter nonsense’ (to quote my seven year old about… a couple of EMs, I think. I never worked out which specific pins evoked that reaction). Honestly, I could (and have) made a list of 190 pins from the 1970s onwards, and I’d prefer to own 176 of them. The best pin AP have made by a country mile is GTF, which I rate as the 33rd best pin I’ve ever played, and I’m incredulous that they thought to follow it up with BBQ Challenge. Valhalla is a distant second to GTF, again, in my opinion (153 out of 190 rated pins).

AP’s problem is that they’ve got a reputation for producing utter stinkers that I’ve seen people drink coffee at The Pinball Office to avoid playing (we’re in Family Guy territory here, folks) and - when they did produce something good in GTF - no one gave it a chance. It’s hard to come back from a reputation like that. It’s hard enough on Pinside for people to take Elton John seriously as a good pin, I notice, and JJP pins have a decent reputation, by and large.

That said, as always, this is just my opinion.

I’m not as observant as others in this regarding the context in a deeper manner. I think David Fix was surprised to find I was the only AP owner in the room , especially the only GTF owner in the UK too ? but hey I enjoyed the talk and David Fix was more attentive than expected. The fact he used to work for ICE was good news too as I own a Super Kixx which he worked on during his time there.

Huge thanks for taking the time to write a full account of your experiences - it’s really useful You’re perfectly observant, I’m sure I personally only look for subtext because working out “why is this b****d lying to me?” (Not to say David Fix was - it’s just a famous quote about journalists) is part of my day job

Also, as I’ve been so disappointed with the gameplay of many AP pins in the past, I went into the talk hoping to work out how a company could produce something as visually beautiful as Houdini that nonetheless had less ‘kinetic satisfaction’ (Keith Elwin’s phrase) than most Homepin titles. My takeaway is AP’s culture is to believe that their target market is the sort of ‘Pokemon’ pinball collector who tracks down a Magic Girl to buy without playing it and, thus, whether most of the shots brick like a 10ft wall is irrelevant to the buyer experience. If so, I do hope they reconsider because many of us are open to fun new pins from non-Stern companies.

 

[philpalmer]

No they didn't. I paid for the transport of all of the AP games.

And I bought the bbq and imported it just for this show…..

 

[philpalmer]

And not forgetting Darren Ball who did all the heavy lifting and transporting.

And as a thanks. Darren has a free week at my Lakes holiday let as a thank you… not free to me as I pay cleaners etc!

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

No they didn't. I paid for the transport of all of the AP games.

But if Phil hadn’t taken them then AP line up of a total of 2 pins that other people donated would not have been very impressive

 

[JT.]

This post is, as usual when Phil throws his toys out of his pram and all his mates jump in, a disgrace. Take it up with the supplier, it's nothing to do with the OP's post.

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

This post is, as usual when Phil throws his toys out of his pram and all his mates jump in, a disgrace. Take it up with the supplier, it's nothing to do with the OP's post.

I agree it’s not it was up to David fix to discuss poor sales with Phil and if he was looking to add a new Uk distributor that’s what he should have done not to have been asked to take pins to the show only to find out 2 days later by social media there is a new Uk distributor understandable why pinball heaven are annoyed
He could have rang and discussed why sales are poor and try to find away forward but to be fair that lies at ap door they are producing pins that are over priced and no one wants not only in the Uk no distractor will be able to sell them
If he had the chat with ph then I am sure they would have parted ways much more amicable
And that the fact ph only sold 2 pins from the last 3 titles then maybe this was a good time to let someone else take the distribution on and see if they can do any better
David fix obviously doesn’t have a clue about the Uk market maybe retro dsve does
He must have had all the Uk sales figures when he did his speech but then to be shocked when he asked how many people owned a ap pin and there was only one and only one person in the room with a large collection who did not have a ap pin is laughable

 

[JT.]

I agree it’s not it was up to David fix to discuss poor sales with Phil and if he was looking to add a new Uk distributor that’s what he should have done not to have been asked to take pins to the show only to find out 2 days later by social media there is a new Uk distributor understandable why pinball heaven are annoyed
He could have rang and discussed why sales are poor and try to find away forward but to be fair that lies at ap door they are producing pins that are over priced and no one wants not only in the Uk no distractor will be able to sell them
If he had the chat with ph then I am sure they would have parted ways much more amicable
And that the fact ph only sold 2 pins from the last 3 titles then maybe this was a good time to let someone else take the distribution on and see if they can do any better
David fix obviously doesn’t have a clue about the Uk market maybe retro dsve does
He must have had all the Uk sales figures when he did his speech but then to be shocked when he asked how many people owned a ap pin and there was only one and only one person in the room with a large collection who did not have a ap pin is laughable

I don't have an opinion on the ethics of who's right or wrong to be honest Chris, the mature and professional approach would be for Pinball Heaven to discuss this in private with their vendor.

I do object to the attempts at bullying other UK vendors, comments jumped on and amplified by Pinball Heaven colleagues - and it's not the first time this tactic has been taken on this forum. As I said, the place for this discussion is in private with the supplier, not having a tantrum in a public forum, especially on a competitor's thread, a competitor who has behaved impeccably.

 

[CHRIS B PINBALLS]

I don't have an opinion on the ethics of who's right or wrong to be honest Chris, the mature and professional approach would be for Pinball Heaven to discuss this in private with their vendor.

I do object to the attempts at bullying other UK vendors, comments jumped on and amplified by Pinball Heaven colleagues - and it's not the first time this tactic has been taken on this forum. As I said, the place for this discussion is in private with the supplier, not having a tantrum in a public forum, especially on a competitor's thread, a competitor who has behaved impeccably.

Again I agree with some of this but if it was taken up and discussed with Phil first before Dave even posted anything I don’t think Phil would of even cared probably more relieved
I think it’s more the principle than anything else

 

[Calimori]

Still business. Dave was accepted as a distributor, is it his job to manage PH’s relationship with AP?

 

[cyberkryten]

They are still using p-roc as far as i know..

Is it an actual PROC or is is modified/locked down? Could I buy one of their games and recode it with the standard PROC dev tools? Always fancied doing that, but building the thing is what put me off

 

[Epotech]

He said they were backwards compatible so I imagine it's still proc but their version

 

[VeeMonroe]

I don't have an opinion on the ethics of who's right or wrong to be honest Chris, the mature and professional approach would be for Pinball Heaven to discuss this in private with their vendor.

I do object to the attempts at bullying other UK vendors, comments jumped on and amplified by Pinball Heaven colleagues - and it's not the first time this tactic has been taken on this forum. As I said, the place for this discussion is in private with the supplier, not having a tantrum in a public forum, especially on a competitor's thread, a competitor who has behaved impeccably.

I agree that it's not @David retro's business to manage David Fix's behaviour. David Retro seems to have behaved impeccably and I wish him the very best of luck

From what has been described, I'm so sorry to hear this has happened to @philpalmer. I can understand why he's very upset - BBQ Challenge would be a poisoned chalice at full price, even if the gameplay was superb. Even David Fix admitted in his talk that big grills aren't a major part of UK culture, and - as we've seen with Elton John - theme is a big part of what drives sales. The idea that Phil would import one for the show, doubtless knowing it would be tough to sell afterwards but keen to maintain his AP-client relationship, and then be dumped with it two days later is so very sad to hear

I don't think anyone is at fault here. I'm sure David Fix thinks his pins are all ace

 

[Jagspete]

I don’t know either party, and see nothing wrong with either of their postings on this FORUM for discussion of pinballs. Indeed I believe if anything it’s beneficial for the OP, always good to know how people you’re in business with behave.

 

[Fantazia2]

Thee idea that Phil would import one for the show, doubtless knowing it would be tough to sell afterwards but keen to maintain his AP-client relationship, and then be dumped with it two days later is so very sad to hear

I don't think this is correct, PH wasn't dumped as a distro, Retro David became a new distro so PH was longer the exclusive one and Phil has decided to no longer sell them, don't think there was anything stopping PH still being a distro for AP at the same time.

Similar thing happened with BOF when Phil was no longer the sole importer he decided not to bother selling them.

 

[Gonzo]

I've not particularly wanted to get involved here, but considering I was in constant contact with David Fix and Pinball Heaven from GTF to BBQ Challenge coming over I'd just like to put a few things straight in defence of Phil.

Galactic Tank Force (good game btw) did really badly sales wise and Phil was not keen to stock any more American Pinballs because they didn't sell. However, he purchased and shipped Barries BBQ Challenge for videos and because he knew David Fix was coming to Pinfest. Ironically, I told Phil not to buy the BBQ Challenge but he was adamant that it should be shipped over, filmed and sent to my house for people to play before sending it off to various venues in the hope that it would generate some excitement and sales.

Basically, Phil would never have forked out thousands to buy and ship the game if he knew that he would no longer be exclusive.

Was what happened illegal? No. Did Pinball Heaven have an exclusivity agreement? Possibly not. . . . But it wasn't really the decent thing to do.

Fix basically got a game sale and marketing because Phil was under the impression that he was the sole UK distributor. There is no way that he would have purchased BBQ Challenge and put it at Pinfest if he'd have known what someone else would benefit from his test machines (Phil also supplied Legends of Valhalla and Galatic Tank Force).

Basically, Pinball Heaven paid for some promotion and marketing of AP in the UK only to be diluted without notice.

Barrells of Fun was different because there was no existing relationship and no money had been exchanged. @dave Retro brought the first Labyrinth to the UK so the situation is quite different.

I don't blame Dave btw, he was offered the chance to supply another line of pinball machines and would have been silly to say no.

I hope this isn't repackaged as just 'sticking up for my mate', I've merely stated facts and tried to be a reasonable as possible. I can totally understand how Phil is pi$$£d off having run at a loss on AP's over the years.

The very least Phil deserved to be kept informed. Imagine spending all of that money then finding out on social media . . . not great.

 

[PinballNoobie]

The market isn't big enough for 2 distros to share, for these boutique pinball manufacturers.

If only 2 AP units have been sold in the last 2 years. I would like a Labyrinth but it's a lot of dough for a machine I've played once.

I'd quite like a Barry O's BBQ as it reminds me of BSD but is a new machine with a quirky theme, playfield palette makes Looney Tunes look tame, but even at 5.5k I would be seriously concerned that it would have zero resale appeal.

 

[Atlantis]

I was not going to post here, but its been interesting reading.

My 2 cents on it and I have all the facts and am the Distro from both Stern and AP for Ireland.

Mr Fix has been to all Distros around the Globe going to their countries shows Iaapa ,expos etc.

Now most have said they like some AP games GTF+BBQ yet the UK Only distro seems like had to be forced to get machines to the main Home market Pinball Show, But if there was no GTF or BBQ at Pinfest would you even think about buying an AP machine if you could not play it first ? Mr Fix wants his machines pushed out in as many markets as he can but if there is none to be seen how can his sales ever get better than what's been happening. I was asked to bring the full lineup to UK of AP machines but why would I it's PH market until now

I don't know David's sales of Labyrinth but if he did not take the distro of it then the likely sales of it would have been 1 in the UK because he is showing that machine at every show he can.

But when your distro comes to your country for its main show Phill no-where to be seen (to me thats a snub) as for Holiday excuse why take one when your main market show is going to be on?

I operate Machines in arcades and Pool halls but I won't buy a machine on FOMO I have to play it to decide do I want it in one of my places so if PH does not show any how do UK operators and home market see them?

So are other arcade operators and home users going to buy these machines without seeing them at shows ? In 42 years doing this biz I have seen PH less than David retro-arcade at shows.

But I Blame Electrocoin for making PH/Retro/My life easier they order 100s of machines in advance for UK market so we can just order what we need as there already there whereas you have to order alot more from CGC/AP ETC to fill a container or/half so I can see why Sterns sell more in UK and can see why PH pushes them more.

Phil Murphy should not have to ask Distro's for machines at his show there should be a long line out the door with them hoping he takes their machines.

To me Pinball heaven's old business model is gone. you have to please you're customer base or retire