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UKCS
- Thread starter Wayne J
- Start date
As some of you may know the IFPA have introduced a £1 per competitor fee for all competitions to be registered with / sanctioned by the IFPA to earn WPPR pts.
Details can be found here:
www.pinballinfo.com
This effectively means that 50% of the monies raised will be allocated towards the UKCS finals. (Based on last years figures this should be around £1000).
That money will be split between trophies, prize money, and the venue hosting the Finals.
There will also be 20% of the total monies raised allocated to a charity of choosing by the highest seeded qualifier.
Most countries run a Championship Series based on the results, not of where there competitor comes from, but which country they competed in. The US runs it by each State.
What we are going to do in the UK is create a circuit of events which count towards the standings. These events will mainly be long established competitions, or competitions held in venues open to the public outside of the competition. The plan is to have about a dozen comps counting to the standings with as few duplications of venues as possible, so as not to give 'home advantage' to any site - be that familiarity of games, or ease of travel to.
If a venue hosts multiple competitions over a weekend, then the pts allocated will be the total WPPR pts earned by that player divided by the number of comps (regardless of whether they competed in all of them).
Each players total will consist of their 8 best out of 12 results (or scaled appropriately). In addition to qualify for the Final, players must compete in at least 3 events.
The top 24 competitors will be offered a place in the final.
Here's what the standing would be using 2022 results
Details can be found here:
£1 Fee introduced for IFPA events
As of the 1st of January the IFPA introduced a £1 fee per person (man, woman or child) for ALL events that wish to be registered, and thus be eligible for WPPR points. Payment is made by the tournament organiser at https://www.ifpapinball.com/payment/ This will allocate credits to your account...
www.pinballinfo.com
This effectively means that 50% of the monies raised will be allocated towards the UKCS finals. (Based on last years figures this should be around £1000).
That money will be split between trophies, prize money, and the venue hosting the Finals.
There will also be 20% of the total monies raised allocated to a charity of choosing by the highest seeded qualifier.
Most countries run a Championship Series based on the results, not of where there competitor comes from, but which country they competed in. The US runs it by each State.
What we are going to do in the UK is create a circuit of events which count towards the standings. These events will mainly be long established competitions, or competitions held in venues open to the public outside of the competition. The plan is to have about a dozen comps counting to the standings with as few duplications of venues as possible, so as not to give 'home advantage' to any site - be that familiarity of games, or ease of travel to.
If a venue hosts multiple competitions over a weekend, then the pts allocated will be the total WPPR pts earned by that player divided by the number of comps (regardless of whether they competed in all of them).
Each players total will consist of their 8 best out of 12 results (or scaled appropriately). In addition to qualify for the Final, players must compete in at least 3 events.
The top 24 competitors will be offered a place in the final.
Here's what the standing would be using 2022 results
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Calendar of events
I propose using the following competitions/events to calculate the standings.
Nothing additional will be required from these hosts, as the pts will be taken direct from the IFPA website.
If any of these venues would like to propose a different competition to be used, give me details of the dates, are not planning on running an event, or anything else please let me know and I can update the calendar.
Similarly, if a venue would like their competition to be included get in touch and we can discuss,
Would like to get at least 1 event in either Ireland or Scotland if possible to make it a true UKCS.
Xmas Cracker - Shepshed Jan 8th @Telboy
www.ifpapinball.com
Winter Warmer - Electric Circus,Nuneaton Jan 29th @steve brum
www.ifpapinball.com
Domino April 7th-8th - @Neil McRae
www.ifpapinball.com
www.ifpapinball.com
www.ifpapinball.com
Pinball and Pizza - Medway, Rochester. May 28th - @Mike Parkins @mission65
www.ifpapinball.com
Day at the Office - East Anglia, 25th June @Lecari @Hiltoncriss
www.ifpapinball.com
Pinfest - Daventry 25-27th August @Arv @Wizcat
www.ifpapinball.com
UK League Final - Daventry 26th August @Wayne J
www.ifpapinball.com
UK Open - Croydon 29th September - 1st October @Neil McRae
www.ifpapinball.com
www.ifpapinball.com
www.ifpapinball.com
www.ifpapinball.com
Monster Bash (November) - PBR @Matt Vince
Festive Gathering - Special When Lit, Salisbury (December) @Moonraker
Robot Bash - Poole 30th December @robotgreg
www.ifpapinball.com
If Swavesey is registered with the IFPA, that will also be included.
I propose using the following competitions/events to calculate the standings.
Nothing additional will be required from these hosts, as the pts will be taken direct from the IFPA website.
If any of these venues would like to propose a different competition to be used, give me details of the dates, are not planning on running an event, or anything else please let me know and I can update the calendar.
Similarly, if a venue would like their competition to be included get in touch and we can discuss,
Would like to get at least 1 event in either Ireland or Scotland if possible to make it a true UKCS.
Xmas Cracker - Shepshed Jan 8th @Telboy
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Winter Warmer - Electric Circus,Nuneaton Jan 29th @steve brum
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Domino April 7th-8th - @Neil McRae
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Pinball and Pizza - Medway, Rochester. May 28th - @Mike Parkins @mission65
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Day at the Office - East Anglia, 25th June @Lecari @Hiltoncriss
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Pinfest - Daventry 25-27th August @Arv @Wizcat
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
UK League Final - Daventry 26th August @Wayne J
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
UK Open - Croydon 29th September - 1st October @Neil McRae
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
Monster Bash (November) - PBR @Matt Vince
Festive Gathering - Special When Lit, Salisbury (December) @Moonraker
Robot Bash - Poole 30th December @robotgreg
International Flipper Pinball Association!
www.ifpapinball.com
If Swavesey is registered with the IFPA, that will also be included.
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The format for the finals is now decided.
There will be 11 rounds of group play.
10 rounds of 8 x 3-player games followed by a single round of 6 x 4 players.
This will mean that every competitor will play every other competitor EXACTLY once (see it can be done).
Pts scoring will be 2,1,0 for the 3 player games and 3,2,1,0 for the 4 player games.
If there is a tie between 2 players after all 11 rounds have been played. The head to head result from the qualifying round where they faced each other will decide the winner
If there is a tie with more than 2 players, which can't be decided by the head to head results, there will be a single game to decide the winner with those players.
To answer @Jackpot 's question as to why seeding is important, and the benefits of qualifying higher up.
In each of the games, the highest seeded player will have choice of machine. With the proviso that they can't select a machine they have chosen previously throughout the competition. This means that qualifying in 1st place will mean that you will have first choice in every round, (2nd you will have first choice in every round except the round you face the highest seed, qualify last and you will have last choice in every round).
There will be 11 rounds of group play.
10 rounds of 8 x 3-player games followed by a single round of 6 x 4 players.
This will mean that every competitor will play every other competitor EXACTLY once (see it can be done).
Pts scoring will be 2,1,0 for the 3 player games and 3,2,1,0 for the 4 player games.
If there is a tie between 2 players after all 11 rounds have been played. The head to head result from the qualifying round where they faced each other will decide the winner
If there is a tie with more than 2 players, which can't be decided by the head to head results, there will be a single game to decide the winner with those players.
To answer @Jackpot 's question as to why seeding is important, and the benefits of qualifying higher up.
In each of the games, the highest seeded player will have choice of machine. With the proviso that they can't select a machine they have chosen previously throughout the competition. This means that qualifying in 1st place will mean that you will have first choice in every round, (2nd you will have first choice in every round except the round you face the highest seed, qualify last and you will have last choice in every round).
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If you've included A Day at The office for the last year example what's the reason for not including the recent Pinball office comp considering you've got Terry's event which was also earlier in the year I assume it's not because it was before you announced this?
"Please give me time to fill in the above, before asking questions"
It was not included as I anticipate another event happening at some point in the year, or is that not the case?
By using the later event that would give more opportunity for promotion and a larger turnout, thus benefitting the Pinball Office itself.
Clearly the Xmas cracker is a once a year event and no event at the same location this year.
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"Please give me time to fill in the above, before asking questions"
I thought you'd filled it in considering I had seen the thread with that message and nothing above and it had since been filled in to the same level it is now without that message present.
So I did give time and you answered the question, so I don't understand the need to quote that or put a facepalm emote.
I don't know about pinball office as it's not my thing, I was just curious why one event and not the other and you've answered that now.
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D
Deleted member 2463
Wayne,
I think the first list has a mistake and you are linking to cracker 23 instead of cracker 22 (the results are fine).
I assume for '22 finals all tournaments in the 2022 year will be counted per previous UKCS approach?
In my view as I stated I believe the funds should be split per region and there should be a proper regional qualifying then a national final. That way the money raised in the regions stays in the regions. People can nominate what region they want to play in if they qualify for that region by being high enough much like the US has. Have a set of regional finals all on the same day and then a national finals that can be held at one of the regional venues and rotated.
Right now we at PBR will probably raise more money than the other locations in the UK added up and few of our members will be in the UKCS.
In the absence of that I think anything that creates a predetermined circuit is to be welcomed- but I would ask that all events that are included strictly follow the IFPA rules and have a qualifying segment and a finals round so there is proper alignment for qualifying. One might also ask those circuit events to have a further contribution to the UKCS pot also per SPC.
Cheers,
Neil
I think the first list has a mistake and you are linking to cracker 23 instead of cracker 22 (the results are fine).
I assume for '22 finals all tournaments in the 2022 year will be counted per previous UKCS approach?
In my view as I stated I believe the funds should be split per region and there should be a proper regional qualifying then a national final. That way the money raised in the regions stays in the regions. People can nominate what region they want to play in if they qualify for that region by being high enough much like the US has. Have a set of regional finals all on the same day and then a national finals that can be held at one of the regional venues and rotated.
Right now we at PBR will probably raise more money than the other locations in the UK added up and few of our members will be in the UKCS.
In the absence of that I think anything that creates a predetermined circuit is to be welcomed- but I would ask that all events that are included strictly follow the IFPA rules and have a qualifying segment and a finals round so there is proper alignment for qualifying. One might also ask those circuit events to have a further contribution to the UKCS pot also per SPC.
Cheers,
Neil
This is in relation to the UKCS for '23 - finals to be held in '24 - so the links are correct.
I haven't been involved in the UKCS for '22, and don't know when the finals will take place for that. @DanLewell may be able to offer more insight.
As for distribution of funds, that is non-negotiable and dictated by the IFPA.
The format of the CS for each country has been approved by the IFPA and is down to each country's Director to set.
I haven't been involved in the UKCS for '22, and don't know when the finals will take place for that. @DanLewell may be able to offer more insight.
As for distribution of funds, that is non-negotiable and dictated by the IFPA.
The format of the CS for each country has been approved by the IFPA and is down to each country's Director to set.
Uk league finals as one of the events?????
Should be based upon their home address... not where they fancy playing in this year...
D
Deleted member 2463
retrospectively adding an event seems super questionable to me but I was ok with that until someone pointed out to me Wayne that the fact you won it optically looks shocking!
I have 8 possible home addresses so good luck with that!
I have 8 possible home addresses so good luck with that!
D
Deleted member 2463
indeed! Nonsense given the state of it.
D
Deleted member 2463
So I dumped the UK entries from the IFPA database - number of events:
(I assume the flip frenzy Ian organised is North - LF is league finals which is independent of location and is questionable the number of people listed given who was actually at daventry).
Players wise:
Midlands 695
North 30
SW 234
SE 1860
With 1624 of that at PBR - so even if I give all the other SE players to someone else PBR Is still more than the sum of the rest. so PBR should have way more events.
(I assume the flip frenzy Ian organised is North - LF is league finals which is independent of location and is questionable the number of people listed given who was actually at daventry).
| LF | 1 |
| Midlands | 27 |
| North | 1 |
| SE | 46 |
| SW | 14 |
| Grand Total | 89 |
Players wise:
Midlands 695
North 30
SW 234
SE 1860
With 1624 of that at PBR - so even if I give all the other SE players to someone else PBR Is still more than the sum of the rest. so PBR should have way more events.
I missed you @Neil McRae , but you've brought the negativity and trolling straight back up to quota. 
D
Deleted member 2463
Rather than deal with the points raised you simply try to palm it off with the ridiculous post above. why am I not surprised.
Because HE is the director NOT YOU. No matter how salty you are at not being given the position. I suggest the pair of you talk via PM.
D
Deleted member 2463
LOL - another classic avoid the real issues response - sprinkled, not with “salt“, but with delusion.
Final say on the matter from me in this thread, so as not to derail it even further.
Comparing the UK to the US and wanting it split in to regions is ridiculous. There are 13 US states bigger than England. None of the US states are split in to regions with monies allocated differently.
Maybe if the IFPA recognised PBR as an independent country that could work.
Out of courtesy, @Neil McRae was included in a group (along with others who have been involved in UK pinball for a long time running competitions) initially to discuss possibilities of allocating the money, but rather than a reasoned discussion, decided to screenshot it and send it direct to the IFPA, hence why he hasn't been included in further discussions. Seeing as that didn't work in getting his way, he's decided to now try and create controversy and division, comparing apples to oranges.
Options available for the split of money included (which Neil is fully aware of, yet chooses to ignore):
Giving it back to the IFPA to put towards the running of the World championships - wherever in the world they may be being held.
Giving it to the running of the ECS finals.
Giving it to the UK qualifiers as travel expenses to the World championships (Which would most likely be @PUP & @roadshow16 , neither of which compete at PBR regularly).
Giving it to the UK qualifiers to pay for their tickets to the Worlds championships.
Giving it all to charity.
Using it purely as prize money for the UKCS.
Using it to for the running and setting up of the UKCS.
Using it to fund the UKCS Organiser to attend (including hotel and travel expenses).
None of the options include funnelling the money back to a business.
The option which was settled on was the one outlined above. That is now set, despite any previous or further whining.
The competitions included have been chosen, following discussion with others, to include different venues as much as possible. These were actually selected midway through last year, but due to me waiting to see what happened with the '22 UKCS and discussions with others meant that it delayed being announced until when it was.
Every event organiser has been tagged, with a request to nominate which competition they would like to use as their circuit competition. No one has yet contacted me.
The one event which I was unsure about adding to the circuit was the League Finals. However on reflection I decided it was worth adding, as it fulfils the criteria of being a long-standing established event (pre-dating the IFPA). It is still the largest competition in the UK and is a great way of publicising both competitive pinball and the UKCS in particular. It has a qualifying section (the regionals) and then a final. Due to the IFPA changes, it will only actually be the A Finalists results that are included in the calculations.
If I feel that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the 'feel' of the competitions then it will be removed next year.
The hope is certainly that for next years UKCS, venues will have registered their comps with the IFPA by November at the latest so that the dates can be published well in advance, the UKCS page on the IFPA website can be updated and people can make plans to attend as many comps as possible. (There has also been an offer from somebody to write a bespoke UKCS website, but we'll see).
The only change I have considered from the initially published rules, is that instead of the winner of the finals choosing the charity, that the top qualifier over the season gets to choose the charity so as to make qualifying in first place more motivating, but am still discussing with others.
Comparing the UK to the US and wanting it split in to regions is ridiculous. There are 13 US states bigger than England. None of the US states are split in to regions with monies allocated differently.
Maybe if the IFPA recognised PBR as an independent country that could work.
Out of courtesy, @Neil McRae was included in a group (along with others who have been involved in UK pinball for a long time running competitions) initially to discuss possibilities of allocating the money, but rather than a reasoned discussion, decided to screenshot it and send it direct to the IFPA, hence why he hasn't been included in further discussions. Seeing as that didn't work in getting his way, he's decided to now try and create controversy and division, comparing apples to oranges.
Options available for the split of money included (which Neil is fully aware of, yet chooses to ignore):
Giving it back to the IFPA to put towards the running of the World championships - wherever in the world they may be being held.
Giving it to the running of the ECS finals.
Giving it to the UK qualifiers as travel expenses to the World championships (Which would most likely be @PUP & @roadshow16 , neither of which compete at PBR regularly).
Giving it to the UK qualifiers to pay for their tickets to the Worlds championships.
Giving it all to charity.
Using it purely as prize money for the UKCS.
Using it to for the running and setting up of the UKCS.
Using it to fund the UKCS Organiser to attend (including hotel and travel expenses).
None of the options include funnelling the money back to a business.
The option which was settled on was the one outlined above. That is now set, despite any previous or further whining.
The competitions included have been chosen, following discussion with others, to include different venues as much as possible. These were actually selected midway through last year, but due to me waiting to see what happened with the '22 UKCS and discussions with others meant that it delayed being announced until when it was.
Every event organiser has been tagged, with a request to nominate which competition they would like to use as their circuit competition. No one has yet contacted me.
The one event which I was unsure about adding to the circuit was the League Finals. However on reflection I decided it was worth adding, as it fulfils the criteria of being a long-standing established event (pre-dating the IFPA). It is still the largest competition in the UK and is a great way of publicising both competitive pinball and the UKCS in particular. It has a qualifying section (the regionals) and then a final. Due to the IFPA changes, it will only actually be the A Finalists results that are included in the calculations.
If I feel that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the 'feel' of the competitions then it will be removed next year.
The hope is certainly that for next years UKCS, venues will have registered their comps with the IFPA by November at the latest so that the dates can be published well in advance, the UKCS page on the IFPA website can be updated and people can make plans to attend as many comps as possible. (There has also been an offer from somebody to write a bespoke UKCS website, but we'll see).
The only change I have considered from the initially published rules, is that instead of the winner of the finals choosing the charity, that the top qualifier over the season gets to choose the charity so as to make qualifying in first place more motivating, but am still discussing with others.
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Lecari
Site Supporter
D
Deleted member 2463
Yes Wayne I funnelled it back to IFPA because of the way that you were handling it and they rightly intervened given that your two faced approach of slagging the IFPA off at every opportunity you get then being the country representative.
And by the way this ISN'T about funnelling it back to a business - its about ensuring that the players who put the money in get something in return. Our members who will put more than half of the money into the pot should be rewarded for doing so, hence why I believe STRONGLY that Pinball Republic should host more than one event and certainly more than the UK league which is a tin pot competition.
Regards,
Neil.
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I can see both sides of the argument here.
The bottom line is Pinball Republic has done a good job of adapting to IFPA rules (and likely attracted some extra players) in order to maximise the points they can get (nothing wrong with that at all). The fact of the matter is, Pinball Republic DOES NOT HAVE TO have IFPA sanctioned events, they could go back to a Thursday night league, have tournaments for fun or big cash prize tournaments. The fact is we are trying to promote pinball and competitive play in the UK, as Wayne pointed out the UK is not really big enough (players wise) to split into regions for the sake of the UKCS.
There is never going to be a perfect solution, it happens in life that people who contribute the most to making the pie don't get to eat a lot of it.
The bottom line is Pinball Republic has done a good job of adapting to IFPA rules (and likely attracted some extra players) in order to maximise the points they can get (nothing wrong with that at all). The fact of the matter is, Pinball Republic DOES NOT HAVE TO have IFPA sanctioned events, they could go back to a Thursday night league, have tournaments for fun or big cash prize tournaments. The fact is we are trying to promote pinball and competitive play in the UK, as Wayne pointed out the UK is not really big enough (players wise) to split into regions for the sake of the UKCS.
There is never going to be a perfect solution, it happens in life that people who contribute the most to making the pie don't get to eat a lot of it.
It's the start of the NPL - Neil's Pinball League...
Hi @Wayne J - thanks for the effort and explanations. Could I ask about the future finals format or is that still to be discussed? It would good to understand if all finalists will start from an equal footing or if there will be some advantage the higher up you qualify. (Either approach is fine - it just helps plan ahead from an attendance standpoint). Cheers.
Finals format updated in 5th post of the thread.
D
Deleted member 2463
so I'm guessing you'll be managing the scores etc all manually for the finals?
Makes it much tougher for streaming but I can chat to Karl or Andreas and see if any of them would code this up for you.
Key question though is a date and location for the finals - when will this be known?
regards,
Neil.
Makes it much tougher for streaming but I can chat to Karl or Andreas and see if any of them would code this up for you.
Key question though is a date and location for the finals - when will this be known?
regards,
Neil.