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nope, however it would seem to make sense to engage his local market..... lol... unless he doesnt realise this place exists.... Which is possible.... but if he did his homework.... lol
Maybe he thinks that he will get more funding from the US?
Hopefully it isn't the multiballs family moving down south from blackpool
Hopefully it isn't the multiballs family moving down south from blackpool
Hes just been pointed this way..
Yeah I saw that on pinside.
Pointed him here and yahoo group
Pointed him here and yahoo group
Am I just grumpy or does anyone else read it as
1) I want to own a lot of pins
2) I want to charge people to play them and make a profit
No problem with either of those
but.....
3) Please fund my hobby/job via crowdfunding.
4) Please lend me machines
What the **** happened to having an idea and putting your hand in your own pocket?
Using your own cash basically focuses you. If you make mistakes you pay for it.
I'm sick of seeing people pop up, tell everyone they are doing it wrong and then walking away from the crap they cause because they don't have any real commitment in it themselves. Not sure if anyone on here was aware of the **** up that was ALT fest last summer. Could see that one failing a mile off.
For ****s sake. I'm 100% behind anyone who builds something up but hate this idea that other people should underwrite the costs. Stage one of a business plan should always be work out the costs and see if YOU can fund it. I never asked anyone for a penny when I started my first business.
Maybe I'm being too harsh and he's a good bloke who wants to make money out of his hobby, nothing wrong with that. It's the reference to crowdfunding his dream that's ground my gears.
1) I want to own a lot of pins
2) I want to charge people to play them and make a profit
No problem with either of those
but.....
3) Please fund my hobby/job via crowdfunding.
4) Please lend me machines
What the **** happened to having an idea and putting your hand in your own pocket?
Using your own cash basically focuses you. If you make mistakes you pay for it. I'm sick of seeing people pop up, tell everyone they are doing it wrong and then walking away from the crap they cause because they don't have any real commitment in it themselves. Not sure if anyone on here was aware of the **** up that was ALT fest last summer. Could see that one failing a mile off.
For ****s sake. I'm 100% behind anyone who builds something up but hate this idea that other people should underwrite the costs. Stage one of a business plan should always be work out the costs and see if YOU can fund it. I never asked anyone for a penny when I started my first business.
Maybe I'm being too harsh and he's a good bloke who wants to make money out of his hobby, nothing wrong with that. It's the reference to crowdfunding his dream that's ground my gears.
I don't see how you could make any business plan for a pinball museum in the South without financial help of some sorts.
Rough figs :
A suitable building for 20 + pins £ 150 k plus or 12k a year rent ? Plus rates another 5 k ?
So without anything else you would need £1300 - £1500 a month or 300 people paying £5
I know you can get a rates rebate of up to 100%, are there any other breaks being a museum ?
I have thought at times how could you do a non profit pinball place but have not got outside the box enough,
Maybe some kind of pinball retreat at a holiday destination , or a hall where you could have temp bedding for a all night bash,
Obviously bars and cafes are often voiced ?
Pity coz a permanent place where you could have a drink, sleep and play nice pins once a month would be cool, maybe have a side part where fellow infusiasts could work on problem pins fixes as well ?
Oh well nice to dream
Rough figs :
A suitable building for 20 + pins £ 150 k plus or 12k a year rent ? Plus rates another 5 k ?
So without anything else you would need £1300 - £1500 a month or 300 people paying £5
I know you can get a rates rebate of up to 100%, are there any other breaks being a museum ?
I have thought at times how could you do a non profit pinball place but have not got outside the box enough,
Maybe some kind of pinball retreat at a holiday destination , or a hall where you could have temp bedding for a all night bash,
Obviously bars and cafes are often voiced ?
Pity coz a permanent place where you could have a drink, sleep and play nice pins once a month would be cool, maybe have a side part where fellow infusiasts could work on problem pins fixes as well ?
Oh well nice to dream
Think most of us have had that dream of owning loads of pins and having a museum/building full of them but reality is that you would have to do it for love and not for money/profit 
Arcade club seem to have it right but as been said before you really need to already have the machine stock . your next hurdle is finding premesis in the UK cheap enough but in the right location. If someone found that with a large starting lineup I'm sure others would lend games and even help in terms of technical skills etc. Lots of smaller countries seem to have pinball museums such as Hungary Netherlands and Poland. Maybe Britain is just too expensive property wise
Lol you have enough machines to start one
C
craiga_uk
Hi folks,
Right, firstly "hello"!
I feel a bit of a numpty for not knowing anything about this forum - my web experience of pinball banter was originally the rec.games.pinball newsgroup, followed by the UK Yahoo! group (which I rarely used as I hate Yahoo! and their groups interface). I switched to an account on Pinside around 4-5 years ago and have rarely ever used it. Now I know you're here, and the community is mainly UK focused, I look forward to getting to know you all better.
Now, to explain a little more about this project/dream...
I visited the Pinball Hall of Fame in Las Vegas in 2013, and thought it was fantastic for anyone who is already a pin-head, but there wasn't much information or content for anyone who was curious or new to the game. I started thinking of how, if I were to set up my own attraction/museum, I would do it differently.
This month, while on holiday in the South West, I was ruminating on the idea again - so thought I'd throw out my initial idea on Pinside to get some feedback... and now I'm here.
My background is primarily in IT, but I've set up 2 successful companies (the IT services firm, and an online home automation e-commerce site) which both employ staff, have premises, and are profitable - so I have a pretty solid idea of the basic challenges of getting set-up and running.
Essentially, I can see there are 2 ways to about setting up this venture:
1) Form a non-profit, with a board of trustees - and then build up a bunch of donors, patrons, etc.
2) Look to run this as a profitable attraction, and run it like a 'real' business
My initial thought is that, as I'm going to have to risk a lot of investment of both money and time, I'd look at option (2) and then have the control to set-up the venture without the burden and delay of running with trustees.
This is why I've been looking at South/South West coastal resorts. The idea being that, as well as the season pin-heads I'd hope would visit, we'd also attract people looking for an interesting (hands-on) museum, and also those who are sick of burning £10 in about 10 minutes at the amusements - could pay to have essentially 'free play' for a chunk of time.
To reply to John's concerns:
I would be looking to fund this primarily off my own back, but would be a lax businessman if I didn't consider the options available such as crowdfunding. I'm not naive enough to believe the whole venture could be crowd-funded, but I think that a small section of the project certainly may be able to be... and the rewards could be very relevant (free admission for a year, free party hosted at the site, etc). I know there are a lot of crooks around - I've seen the Predator f*ck up - and can remember all the crap years ago from Mr Pinball Australia... these things seem to come and go, but at the moment the actual scene and enthusiasm for playing is strong.
For anyone local to where we end up locating, they will have the benefit of a chunk of great machines they can play and enjoy for a modest cost.
At the moment, I personally have 3 machines - but I have no space for more (otherwise I'd happily have 10+)
In terms of asking for 'loan machines' - I'm aware there are few (if any) people that would just chuck a machine at us for the public to use out of the goodness of their hearts - but there may be people who have static items, memorabilia or something 'museum worthy' that they would be prepared to exhibit.
There may well be the option for us to lease machines from people - I've not really looked at that avenue as yet.
RE: Mission65:
I've found a suitable property in Bournemouth that would be around £20k p/a rent, plus rates (around £8k). Electricity for all the pins, based on 14 hour days (09:00 - 23:00) on a 6 day week, would be approx £1k p/m. Wage roll incl. taxes will be around £75k p/a for 2 staff at all times during opening hours. Machine servicing costs of £10k p/a.
Gas: £250 p/m
Purchasing the required machines, based on the list I've made, will be around £65k (this is actually pretty difficult to judge, based on changing prices on the s/h market)
Fit out of premises, and creation of signage, exhibit information, etc: £6k
Misc. set-up costs £10k
So, up-front set-up costs will be approx:
£80k
Yearly running costs:
Approx £130k
Based on other tourist attractions, I'd scoped out an initial entry price of £8.50 per adult and £5.50 per child. £4 for OAP/disabled.
With a visitor split of 65/25/10 (adult/child/oap) we'd need 1,500 visitors per month to break even - hence the need to be somewhere that's a heavy tourist draw with a lot of visitors.
This doesn't include extra revenue from parties, school visits, special events or yearly membership.
So, there's my introduction and some basic insight into my thoughts and plans.
Please pull them to pieces, it's all useful feedback.
(Perhaps I'm crazy and this is all a really BAD idea!!)
Right, firstly "hello"!
I feel a bit of a numpty for not knowing anything about this forum - my web experience of pinball banter was originally the rec.games.pinball newsgroup, followed by the UK Yahoo! group (which I rarely used as I hate Yahoo! and their groups interface). I switched to an account on Pinside around 4-5 years ago and have rarely ever used it. Now I know you're here, and the community is mainly UK focused, I look forward to getting to know you all better.
Now, to explain a little more about this project/dream...
I visited the Pinball Hall of Fame in Las Vegas in 2013, and thought it was fantastic for anyone who is already a pin-head, but there wasn't much information or content for anyone who was curious or new to the game. I started thinking of how, if I were to set up my own attraction/museum, I would do it differently.
This month, while on holiday in the South West, I was ruminating on the idea again - so thought I'd throw out my initial idea on Pinside to get some feedback... and now I'm here.
My background is primarily in IT, but I've set up 2 successful companies (the IT services firm, and an online home automation e-commerce site) which both employ staff, have premises, and are profitable - so I have a pretty solid idea of the basic challenges of getting set-up and running.
Essentially, I can see there are 2 ways to about setting up this venture:
1) Form a non-profit, with a board of trustees - and then build up a bunch of donors, patrons, etc.
2) Look to run this as a profitable attraction, and run it like a 'real' business
My initial thought is that, as I'm going to have to risk a lot of investment of both money and time, I'd look at option (2) and then have the control to set-up the venture without the burden and delay of running with trustees.
This is why I've been looking at South/South West coastal resorts. The idea being that, as well as the season pin-heads I'd hope would visit, we'd also attract people looking for an interesting (hands-on) museum, and also those who are sick of burning £10 in about 10 minutes at the amusements - could pay to have essentially 'free play' for a chunk of time.
To reply to John's concerns:
I would be looking to fund this primarily off my own back, but would be a lax businessman if I didn't consider the options available such as crowdfunding. I'm not naive enough to believe the whole venture could be crowd-funded, but I think that a small section of the project certainly may be able to be... and the rewards could be very relevant (free admission for a year, free party hosted at the site, etc). I know there are a lot of crooks around - I've seen the Predator f*ck up - and can remember all the crap years ago from Mr Pinball Australia... these things seem to come and go, but at the moment the actual scene and enthusiasm for playing is strong.
For anyone local to where we end up locating, they will have the benefit of a chunk of great machines they can play and enjoy for a modest cost.
At the moment, I personally have 3 machines - but I have no space for more (otherwise I'd happily have 10+)
In terms of asking for 'loan machines' - I'm aware there are few (if any) people that would just chuck a machine at us for the public to use out of the goodness of their hearts - but there may be people who have static items, memorabilia or something 'museum worthy' that they would be prepared to exhibit.
There may well be the option for us to lease machines from people - I've not really looked at that avenue as yet.
RE: Mission65:
I've found a suitable property in Bournemouth that would be around £20k p/a rent, plus rates (around £8k). Electricity for all the pins, based on 14 hour days (09:00 - 23:00) on a 6 day week, would be approx £1k p/m. Wage roll incl. taxes will be around £75k p/a for 2 staff at all times during opening hours. Machine servicing costs of £10k p/a.
Gas: £250 p/m
Purchasing the required machines, based on the list I've made, will be around £65k (this is actually pretty difficult to judge, based on changing prices on the s/h market)
Fit out of premises, and creation of signage, exhibit information, etc: £6k
Misc. set-up costs £10k
So, up-front set-up costs will be approx:
£80k
Yearly running costs:
Approx £130k
Based on other tourist attractions, I'd scoped out an initial entry price of £8.50 per adult and £5.50 per child. £4 for OAP/disabled.
With a visitor split of 65/25/10 (adult/child/oap) we'd need 1,500 visitors per month to break even - hence the need to be somewhere that's a heavy tourist draw with a lot of visitors.
This doesn't include extra revenue from parties, school visits, special events or yearly membership.
So, there's my introduction and some basic insight into my thoughts and plans.
Please pull them to pieces, it's all useful feedback.
(Perhaps I'm crazy and this is all a really BAD idea!!)
C
craiga_uk
Hi John,
I was very proud of having started both of my business of my own back with very little money. However, I learned a few years ago when my business coach encouraged me to take a loan for growth purposes that, had I done it earlier, I would have been more profitable sooner.
I'd made profit every year on every business, but the extra funds allow you to make decisions based on what's best for the business rather than what's best for immediate cashflow.
If it's not a viable proposition for the bank to invest then it's probably not a great idea...
Welcome Craig, great discussion,
Top find the site at Bournmouth, I have been looking at suitable sites for my own pinball nirvana and have recently seen 2 sights that are near the 100k mark, but that would need work
I would love to do something for the pin community and already have a room with pins set up at work and another room that I use as a large workshop, but both are at the back of a big warehouse I have for the real world
Top find the site at Bournmouth, I have been looking at suitable sites for my own pinball nirvana and have recently seen 2 sights that are near the 100k mark, but that would need work
I would love to do something for the pin community and already have a room with pins set up at work and another room that I use as a large workshop, but both are at the back of a big warehouse I have for the real world
Welcome to the forum Craig, and good luck with the venture. I'd love for there to be somewhere like that close to me, at least the UK Pinbal Party is close this year. Actually there's a thought, get in touch with Andy Heighway and see if he can help at all with sponsorship etc, .....get his companies name displayed prominently at the museum, and maybe a machine or 2.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
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Welcome Craig and love the idea. My concern is that getting 1500 people a month to play pinball seems a tough proposition. Museums in the USA struggle to break even and there are some real good ones, some with 200 games, including some of the best woodrails of the 1950's.
Good luck and keep exploring options.
Good luck and keep exploring options.
Welcome Craig,
Does your required footfall of 1500 people a month need to be 12 months of the year or is it skewed towards the holidays as all of the coastal locations you mention die off dramatically outside of the summer months. Getting 1500 people through the door in November or February could be very difficult. I don't know about Bournemouth but in Weymouth only one of the 3 arcades does any sort of decent numbers through the door and thats because it's right off the beach in a prominent location, has an outside area for rides and is stuffed full of redemption machines.
Does your required footfall of 1500 people a month need to be 12 months of the year or is it skewed towards the holidays as all of the coastal locations you mention die off dramatically outside of the summer months. Getting 1500 people through the door in November or February could be very difficult. I don't know about Bournemouth but in Weymouth only one of the 3 arcades does any sort of decent numbers through the door and thats because it's right off the beach in a prominent location, has an outside area for rides and is stuffed full of redemption machines.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 2,826
Ps
Paris Pinball museum is pretty amazing if you like em's. I know Raphael has sunk over £2 million into it so not cheap!
We had pinball parlour down in Kent and whilst it was good to have games on location, most played really sluggish . Same at PHOF , about 30% of games were all but unplayable when I went there, due to weak flippers etc etc. So important to have games that work 100% and play like they did when they came out of the factory
Paris Pinball museum is pretty amazing if you like em's. I know Raphael has sunk over £2 million into it so not cheap!
C
craiga_uk
Hi!
Yes, that would be a monthly average across 12 months of the year. I'm very aware of the seasonality of the seaside resorts - but I am thinking that the extra draw from the additional summer visitors will be beneficial. After all, if the museum was in a less touristy location you're relying on people travelling to visit at any point in the year. It's the same at the seaside, but during the boom months you have much more passing traffic.
I see the proposition as being a bit different from an arcade, as it's marketable via tourist information points, hotels, the web, Tripadvisor, etc. Most people don't plan to visit an arcade, they tend to drop in on passing. I'm hoping people will actively choose to visit as an experience. I could be very wide of the mark!
As a child, I loved visiting places like the Science Museum in London, where I could touch and play with the exhibits. I want to make this place a bit similar - apart from the pinballs which are all playable - with interactive exhibits showing the physics of the flipper, how the bumpers work, etc.
I think this adds educational content which would bring an additional market of people (plus if it can be curriculum relevant, bring the option of school trips, etc)
I think the issue with places like the PHOF is that they are just a wall of machines - great if you're already a pin-head, but a bit daunting if you're new to things.
Hi folks,
I've found a suitable property in Bournemouth that would be around £20k p/a rent, plus rates (around £8k) - cheap, well done
Electricity for all the pins, based on 14 hour days (09:00 - 23:00) on a 6 day week, would be approx £1k p/m - 2 things, 6 day week would be crackers in season (needs to be 7) but people want stuff to do at week-ends so the closed day would need to be an early week-day. Opening to 11pm would also be crazy, there's a serious drop off post 5pm, I would suggest 8 or 9 pm in season and 5pm out of season
Wage roll incl. taxes will be around £75k p/a for 2 staff at all times during opening hours. Machine servicing costs of £10k p/a.
Gas: £250 p/m
Purchasing the required machines, based on the list I've made, will be around £65k (this is actually pretty difficult to judge, based on changing prices on the s/h market)
Fit out of premises, and creation of signage, exhibit information, etc: £6k
Misc. set-up costs £10k
So, up-front set-up costs will be approx:
£80k
Yearly running costs: Approx £130k - this seems pretty awful
Based on other tourist attractions, I'd scoped out an initial entry price of £8.50 per adult and £5.50 per child. £4 for OAP/disabled. With a visitor split of 65/25/10 (adult/child/oap) split would more likely be 50-50 in season adults to kids
We'd need 1,500 visitors per month to break even - hence the need to be somewhere that's a heavy tourist draw with a lot of visitors. So 50 per day on average, arcade club gets somewhere around this on their one day opening per week, you don't say how many machines you plan for, I'm guessing 30? You would need to rotate them to stop the museum becoming stale but also for nagging faults and overhauls, so would need 20% more than you plan.
This doesn't include extra revenue from parties, school visits, special events or yearly membership. Welcome and good luck
So, there's my introduction and some basic insight into my thoughts and plans.
Please pull them to pieces, it's all useful feedback.
(Perhaps I'm crazy and this is all a really BAD idea!!)
Great discussion, OP have you thought about going along the Barcade route??
Seem to be thriving in the US and I know personally I'd love one in Manchester. I think well maintained, quality machines would pull in an 'alternative' crowd easily.
Seem to be thriving in the US and I know personally I'd love one in Manchester. I think well maintained, quality machines would pull in an 'alternative' crowd easily.
Would love to see it happen, however i think 1500 visitors per month even if in the height of the season would be rather over-optimistic.
Just a thought - How about speaking to owners of other businesses in the Approx location to see what their turnover of people is?
Just a thought - How about speaking to owners of other businesses in the Approx location to see what their turnover of people is?
C
craiga_uk
Yes, actually the second phase of the project (due to the time and legal requirements) would be to get a licence for alcohol on the premises, which opens up the evening market (hence the 11PM opening) and would provide the ability to host functions/parties and decent pinball events with booze.
Didn't think about a full on barcade style set-up, but it's interesting...
C
craiga_uk
Yeah, that's the worry and the big unknown... how much of a draw would it be?
Based on an estimate of 75% of the visitors being weekend, and a man math calculation of 4 weeks in the month, this would mean needing around 140 visitors per weekend day (280 per weekend in total).
Broken down into the opening hours, this would be around 10 per hour.
The other businesses next door are shops (large chains) so getting the figs would be tricky. I may just pop down in the next few weeks and sit and count the passing trade for an hour or two.
C
craiga_uk
Agreed, although if we end up serving alcohol on-premise then I would think an 11PM close would be advantageous. I'll re-work calculations based on a 5PM close in the weeks, and 9PM at weekends and see how that alters the overheads.
Yes, I know - however, staffing isn't cheap and it would require 2 people min.
Interesting. Where did you work your figures from? I'm basing mine on tourism stats for common visitor draws in the South, plus the fact that it's likely to appeal more to adults than children (IMHO)
I was planning for 40, but as you say there would be a need for swapping/rotating. Hopefully over time there would be some 'historically significant' machines that would stay permanently, and the others would be rotated to keep the games fresh.
Do Arcade Club market themselves to the mass market, or is it for those 'in the know'?
I think the only way this would actually work is to draw in a significant amount of visitors, 'casual players' and arcade strays. The core pinheads will be a given market.
not really... Someone with a salary of around £25k actually COSTS a company around £50k - so therefore realistic...
C
craiga_uk
LOL - no, £75k for 2 staff on premise at any one time (read that as 4 staff, on rotas)
Sounds expensive, but work it out - 14 hours per day, 6 days per week, £7.50 per hour, 50 weeks per year (allowing for closure/downtime) = £63,000
Then add on the NI payments plus other staffing costs and you're not far off £75k.
It always surprises me how people think that staffing/running a business is cheap. By the way, this doesn't account for any takings for me - I'd be able to draw anything that's profit after all the above... If I was looking to 'owner manage' it as a lifestyle business then the staff overheads would be lower. But I'm not (although I'd be on premise a lot during the start up phase).