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Pinball Prices

Jonwolf

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Apr 4, 2016
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Had a quick look on the forum and couldn't find a thread dedicated to discussion on pinball prices so thought I would start one.

According to this link prices are going up (we already know that one) and availability is going down - which explains the price hike I suppose.

We all know that pinball machines should not be treated as an investment despite what many EBay sellers say, but what are people's thoughts on where prices will go?

Austerity and Brexit uncertainty should depress prices in the coming years? Who knows?

What do people think?

http://bostonpinball.biz/ebay0513.htm



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
If and when Article 50 is triggered, or we enter exit talks in earnest, or May fails to be nominated as Tory leader / PM, the £ will plunge. It won't matter if demand is sparse and the world economy is winded by our stupidity.

As there are a very limited number of machines in any reasonable condition in the UK, and increasing numbers of people interested in pinball, we have to look abroad for used machines ... and until such time as Heighway are the pre-eminent pinball manufacturer, we have to import NIB ones from the US or continent.

An already weak, and possibly soon to be much, much weaker £ (vs $) will mean insane prices in the UK. Far worse than now.

At £:$ parity, you can realistically expect a new Stern Pro to retail for more than £7000 (~$11,200 based on last summer / autumn's exchange rates).

With that in mind, you could probably expect sales of new, imported machines to all but evaporate. If an Italian banking crisis eventuates, or Greece falls into crisis again, we might be able to afford DP's machines, or Silver Castle's TimeShock if they get released. Of course, it might help Heighway become a NIB monopoly in the UK, if they can withstand what will be a huge increase in costs.

Hopefully sense prevails and it gets kicked into the grass by parliament, or after a quick round of negotiations with Merkel & Brussels, May calls a second referendum on the draft terms for exit agreed, and the populace votes resoundingly to remain. Even if this happens though, I'm not sure we'll ever see the likes £1-$1.5 in the medium terms ... major damage has already been inflicted, and there's no avoiding the recession that will be announced officially on release of Q3 & Q4 GDP figures.
 
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you can realistically expect a new Stern Pro to retail for more than £7000

Sadly I think you're right. Every discussion I hear on the radio, and pretty well everything I read in print, agrees that the pound is going further south and staying there.

I'm guessing recent, HUO Sterns will tend to hold their value better because of this. Which is just going to make them harder to buy too. :(
 
You can imagine what it'll do to the prices of sought after HUOs like TRON LE, AC/DC LE & Luci and Metallica LE ... but the problem, like NIBs, will be finding anyone that's actually willing to pay.

If this series of events continues on unchecked, we're probably heading into the wilderness again for (UK) pinball.
 
i reckon prices will go up a bit for some games, and down a bit for other ones.
just buy and sell from each other here in the UK and wait for the crazy to settle down.
most pinheads aren't in the market for new games anyway.
 
I'm very anti-Brexit but how much will that affect our market? If you're collecting pins then the chances are that your not hurting for money. An increase in unemployment is almost a certainty if we leave the EU but is more likely to affect the young and poorer people in the country who I suspect are not big pin heads. Some people will be better off with lower mortgage payments as the Govt attempts to stimulate the Economy by slashing interest rates - these are the people who have the disposable cash / space to still buy games.

A big house price crash might cause people to feel poorer (and as such would trigger a longer recession) but again if you are half way+ through your mortgage then this has a far smaller affect than on young 1st time buyers. [trying to get any form of credit is likely to become very difficult]

Sales of 2nd hand pins from the UK to overseas markets will pick up.

The spare / replacement parts market might take a bit of a knock

I think we are in a relatively isolated market, There will be far bigger hits taken in other leisure markets. Pub / restaurant trade will get hammered. Historically cheaper leisure activities do well in recessions. Sales of games consoles etc are buoyant as people have nothing else to do with their time.

How many of us would rush to sell games when things got bad? I suspect I'd end up sitting on games rather than taking a big loss unless I really needed the cash.

Are we actually going to leave the EU though? Every major figure who clled for it seems to have done a runner. Uncertainly alone though is a danger to any economy.
 
Agree with what has been said there. Economists are saying this slump in the pound is only going to get worse. They're expecting around $1.20 by the end of the year, and approaching parity at some point after

And this doesn't just affect NIB prices. If you're selling a pin at what you consider a 'normal' price today, you're going to see a lot more interest from buyers in other parts of the world trying to pick up a bargain. That either means our pins go overseas (less pins in the UK = higher price) or more likely - sellers jack up the prices to exploit the increased interest from buyers.
 
Because - why would businesses invest in this country right now? We're planning to cut ourselves off from the largest marketplace in the world, with no clear plan on how we renegotiate access back into that market with terms that are anywhere near as favourable as we had previously.

So businesses that want to continue trading on the same terms they had previously will most likely relocate out of Britain and into the EU. Less businesses = less taxes, also means less jobs (which also means less taxes). All of this points strongly to recession and 'bad times'.

There are some saying 'oh we can just ride it out', but realistically - what timescale are they looking at? Once we're out of the EU we have zero free trade deals (we had 51+ whilst we were in the EU). So we start negotiating access again. Only, we have no trade negotiators, because we haven't needed any for the last 40 years. Just to put this into perspective, the EU has 500 trade negotiators. The US has 450 working on TTIP alone. The UK has around 20. Given your average trade deal takes years and years of negotiation, with hundreds of diplomats involved - its going to be decades before we even start getting back to what we had previously.

So yeah. Fasten your belts a bit tighter?
 
Think our currency weakness will be a blip. Euro Zone need to address it's many problems/failings which are nowhere near as bad as the UK.
 
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Think our currency weakness will be a blip. Euro Zone need to address it's many problems/failings which are nowhere near as bad as the UK.
I have several friends who work in the hardcore business / finance news world and know their onions...... And without a hesitation they are saying this is by no means a blip. Leaving the EU will take us decades to recover from.This is just the start of a very worrying time for the UK :-(

Where will pinball prices go ? In the words of Mr John Lennon..... To the toppermost of the poppermost :-D........
 
I'm very anti-Brexit but how much will that affect our market? If you're collecting pins then the chances are that your not hurting for money. An increase in unemployment is almost a certainty if we leave the EU but is more likely to affect the young and poorer people in the country who I suspect are not big pin heads. Some people will be better off with lower mortgage payments as the Govt attempts to stimulate the Economy by slashing interest rates - these are the people who have the disposable cash / space to still buy games.

A big house price crash might cause people to feel poorer (and as such would trigger a longer recession) but again if you are half way+ through your mortgage then this has a far smaller affect than on young 1st time buyers. [trying to get any form of credit is likely to become very difficult]

In my view the coming interest rate cut is 1) unwise in the first place and 2) will be reversed quickly.

It's a desperate attempt to stop the economy plunging into recession, but this is completely unavoidable. Cutting interest rates to 0.25% will do little to limit the damage, especially as rates are already ridiculously low at 0.5%.

It may forestall a crash in the house market (very, very slightly) if we do go the whole hog and leave the EU. But again it would be like bailing out a sinking ship with a tea cup.

The biggest impending problem we face in the short to medium term - again if this all continues on without interruption - is the £ becoming practically worthless vs the $. This will have dire consequences. Particularly if and when it falls below the $1.25 mark, which most businesses of every size have simply not legislated for (very foolishly).

To try to prop up the £, the BoE absolutely will have to raise interest rates. As I hinted at previously, weakness in some EuroZone countries and the damage we've done to the EU will prop the £ up a little vs the €, but £ is likely to be in dire straits vs the (Japanese) Yen soon too. That's an absolute disaster for many big infrastructure projects ... some of which are paying the Japanese companies in Yen, or have contract clauses relating to falls in Sterling if signed recently.

Also, though it's not a huge concern right now, due to low oil and oil product prices, once the Saudis begin to cut back production considerably (as they plan to), to re-inflate the price of Crude, we'll be in even more trouble than initially.
 
BigIan the predicted unemployment increase is due to a fall in Aggregate Demand. (Not trying to stir thing up, just replying to your query)

upload_2016-7-8_6-20-26.png

Generally Economists think that the Economy works as in the diagram above . Aggregate Demand is basically the total demand in the Economy, consisting of AD= C+ I+ G+ (X-M) Consumption + Investment + Government spending + Exports - Imports.

Out of all these factors Consumption is by far the largest.

A falling pound would actually boost AD as exports would rise and imports would fall. (this would boost real GDP and employment)

However, this effect is minor compared to the impact of a decrease in consumption on an Economy. Investment will almost certainly fall as non-EU investors look to invest within the Union instead, Government Spending will fall (If corporation tax is reduced to 15% then this loss has to be made up by either increased income tax etc or a reduction in public spending).

The net result is to shift AD inwards which causes a fall in real GDP/employment. (Real GDP is essentially linked to employment which is why you can read employment as position Y on the graphs)

The big shift though is about Consumption which is why an cut in interest rates is likely to reduce people's incentives to save. Is it going to work though? Interest rates are already at record lows. Availability of credit is also a major factors. Banks won't lend to people unless they are certain they can get the money back.


In addition to the change to demand there is also a supply side hit.

upload_2016-7-8_6-29-34.png

Aggregate supply is largely driven by the costs of producing goods. The UK is a big importer of commodities such as Oil and Wheat. These prices are generally sold in US dollars. A decrease in the strength of the pound will cause production costs to increase and again this will cause a decrease in national income / employment. (And inflation, Oil prices are already rising, Wheat will follow shortly but is also subject to large variations due to harvest yields etc)

In terms of inflation a drop in AD will actually cause prices to fall, however the fall in AS will cause prices to rise. The net result will depend on which factor is biggest.

However, both a decrease in AS and a decrease in AD will trigger a rise in unemployment.

Expectations are also very important to the final result. Both Consumption and (Business) Investment are very driven by future predictions. Effectively talking yourself into a recession or growth. The initial changes are also then subject to both a multiplier effect (which is very powerful) and an accelerator effect where a change in investment causes further changes to the speed of changes in the Economy.



Essentially this is the Economic explanation as to why shocks etc are likely to lead to an increase in unemployment. There are very few economists in favour of Brexit. The extent of the supply side shock will determine the damage done to the UK economy. A falling pound will be bad but hopefully not anything like to the same extent of the OPEC price rises in the 70s


Trade is also a very complex thing. Trade barriers are almost certainly not in the interest of either nation. However, this is often a very hard thing to convince people of when they see traditional industries undercut by foreign companies. The recent Tata Steel situation brought this to light when the UK was unable to subsidies their production.
 
Once everyone has given up on the pound and there is maximum doom and gloom it will bounce. No idea why but it will. Same when oil was $30 a barrel last year and doom and gloom called $10. It then bounced back up to $50.

Dollar won't reach parity v pound.

But NIB pinball prices are going to go up again.

And the main outcome is that less people will flip games and just hold onto what they have. Price rises of the last 18 months have already done that to me.
 
I don't want to get in to any political arguments with anybody as we all have different views/different ways of looking at things but at the end of the day we are a democracy and we voted and we voted out so rather than all this doom and gloom and oh we are better in than out, got to agree with @DRD "No-one knows" so lets put the Great back in Britain :thumbs:

The rot set in years ago, I blame Blair, and Brexit is the wake up call not only for us but the rest of the EU because lets be honest the EU is just run by pompous ..... out for whatever they can get!!

We are still here, the world didn't end on Brexit day so whatever happens, happens - if it all goes t..s up then blame it on Brexit and if it all works out hunky dory then I'm sure all the EUphiles will just say we were lucky :p

In the meantime keep flipping :)
 
'By means of example, The Wall Street Journal Europe used to have a comparison of shares picked by investment professionals versus those selected at random by a monkey throwing darts.'

Same difference apart from the amount of bodily hair! I remember this one, seemed to remember the monkey did better than the traders.......also his expenses were considerably lower....

Used to sell software to the LSE many moons ago...on a quiet day they used to look at the Sun....tits pointed to left then they bought, tits to the right then they sold.....

Personally I think Brexit will be like when the USA voted in Bush...I met loads of people who thought he was an idiot But never met anyone who voted for him...strange how some of Brexits biggest supporters have magically disappeared....

Frankly if we get a recession then its the Northern labour market who are liable to get hit first.....ironically the main demographic of those who voted out. So if it all goes wrong then blame yourselves.....obviously I hope it doesn't but if we had left it alone then we wouldn't be seeing the issues in the markets......

All I can say is what a mess and if we think doom and gloom then we will get it....have to be optimistic, whatever we voted....
 
I don't want to get in to any political arguments with anybody as we all have different views/different ways of looking at things but at the end of the day we are a democracy and we voted and we voted out so rather than all this doom and gloom and oh we are better in than out, got to agree with @DRD "No-one knows" so lets put the Great back in Britain :thumbs:

The rot set in years ago, I blame Blair, and Brexit is the wake up call not only for us but the rest of the EU because lets be honest the EU is just run by pompous ..... out for whatever they can get!!

We are still here, the world didn't end on Brexit day so whatever happens, happens - if it all goes t..s up then blame it on Brexit and if it all works out hunky dory then I'm sure all the EUphiles will just say we were lucky :p

In the meantime keep flipping :)


Couldn't agree more!
 
Sadly Another case of an illegal immigrant taking work away from those who are under paid in the UK........hehehe

I believe the monkey went on to have a successful career in a Barclays call centre judging by the total amoeba I was dealing with on Monday.....
 
BigIan the predicted unemployment increase is due to a fall in Aggregate Demand. (Not trying to stir thing up, just replying to your query)

View attachment 32445

Generally Economists think that the Economy works as in the diagram above . Aggregate Demand is basically the total demand in the Economy, consisting of AD= C+ I+ G+ (X-M) Consumption + Investment + Government spending + Exports - Imports.

Out of all these factors Consumption is by far the largest.

A falling pound would actually boost AD as exports would rise and imports would fall. (this would boost real GDP and employment)

However, this effect is minor compared to the impact of a decrease in consumption on an Economy. Investment will almost certainly fall as non-EU investors look to invest within the Union instead, Government Spending will fall (If corporation tax is reduced to 15% then this loss has to be made up by either increased income tax etc or a reduction in public spending).

The net result is to shift AD inwards which causes a fall in real GDP/employment. (Real GDP is essentially linked to employment which is why you can read employment as position Y on the graphs)

The big shift though is about Consumption which is why an cut in interest rates is likely to reduce people's incentives to save. Is it going to work though? Interest rates are already at record lows. Availability of credit is also a major factors. Banks won't lend to people unless they are certain they can get the money back.


In addition to the change to demand there is also a supply side hit.

View attachment 32446

Aggregate supply is largely driven by the costs of producing goods. The UK is a big importer of commodities such as Oil and Wheat. These prices are generally sold in US dollars. A decrease in the strength of the pound will cause production costs to increase and again this will cause a decrease in national income / employment. (And inflation, Oil prices are already rising, Wheat will follow shortly but is also subject to large variations due to harvest yields etc)

In terms of inflation a drop in AD will actually cause prices to fall, however the fall in AS will cause prices to rise. The net result will depend on which factor is biggest.

However, both a decrease in AS and a decrease in AD will trigger a rise in unemployment.

Expectations are also very important to the final result. Both Consumption and (Business) Investment are very driven by future predictions. Effectively talking yourself into a recession or growth. The initial changes are also then subject to both a multiplier effect (which is very powerful) and an accelerator effect where a change in investment causes further changes to the speed of changes in the Economy.



Essentially this is the Economic explanation as to why shocks etc are likely to lead to an increase in unemployment. There are very few economists in favour of Brexit. The extent of the supply side shock will determine the damage done to the UK economy. A falling pound will be bad but hopefully not anything like to the same extent of the OPEC price rises in the 70s


Trade is also a very complex thing. Trade barriers are almost certainly not in the interest of either nation. However, this is often a very hard thing to convince people of when they see traditional industries undercut by foreign companies. The recent Tata Steel situation brought this to light when the UK was unable to subsidies their production.

Anyone notice that the graphs look similar to a ramp set up on a pinball....who'd of thought both Had so much in common.....or the graph could also be used to demonstrate a woman's attractiveness in relation to alcohol one consumes....uncanny....
 
(economics graduate ..... city trader .... knows his onions)

Based on my experience, beware any economic predictions made by anybody. I do not believe that the human brain or the machines devised by it have the capacity to make accurate economic forecasts months out, let alone years out. Economics is an Art masquerading as a science in my opinion.

By means of example, The Wall Street Journal Europe used to have a comparison of shares picked by investment professionals versus those selected at random by a monkey throwing darts. No-one knows.

Amen. Well said, sir

johnwhitfield said:
(teacher)

(here's some graphs that explain what will happen next using science and graphs)

come off it mate.
 
That's kind of been the stumbling block during the campaign with some members of my family too. I tried to explain using reason and facts why remain was the better option, and they just say 'experts are sometimes wrong' as if that's an equally valid point.

I guess it's similar to those that believe in homeopathic medicine. You have a whole world of science and cognitive thought on one side, and on the other people saying they don't believe in science...
So given it's a 50/50 split I guess we'll start to invest in homeopathy more, and then tell people they should ignore science and they just have to "believe in themselves"?
 
That's kind of been the stumbling block during the campaign with some members of my family too. I tried to explain using reason and facts why remain was the better option, and they just say 'experts are sometimes wrong' as if that's an equally valid point.

I guess it's similar to those that believe in homeopathic medicine. You have a whole world of science and cognitive thought on one side, and on the other people saying they don't believe in science...
So given it's a 50/50 split I guess we'll start to invest in homeopathy more, and then tell people they should ignore science and they just have to "believe in themselves"?

Had to chuckle last week when they had exit voters on the radio who voted leave as a vote of defiance against the government...they said that if they knew it would actually happen then they wouldn't have gone down that road...another said they thought it was a poll....sadly these people are stealing our oxygen.........i have no issues with the way people voted, just they need to realise this isn't a dress rehearsal.........sadly, many others used the immigration as an excuse even though Norway tried this and have had to have an open door policy if they wanted to be part of the open market in Europe, thus they conceded this......can't see we will have an exception, ergo I am not convinced anything will change on that front......

Homeopathic medicine.......Personally, if I was being cut of a nasty and freak pinball accident by the fire brigade I would prefer morphine than soothing oils and scented candles.......each to their own I guess........
 
That's kind of been the stumbling block during the campaign with some members of my family too. I tried to explain using reason and facts why remain was the better option, and they just say 'experts are sometimes wrong' as if that's an equally valid point.

I guess it's similar to those that believe in homeopathic medicine. You have a whole world of science and cognitive thought on one side, and on the other people saying they don't believe in science...
So given it's a 50/50 split I guess we'll start to invest in homeopathy more, and then tell people they should ignore science and they just have to "believe in themselves"?
The thing is no one knows what is best - everybody just guessing. And experts are usually wrong as how many experts predicted the banking crash of 2007? Er, not many……

As for chimps, well we are only 2% difference DNA:eek:
 
I work in the financial sector in the city for the 4th largest broker in the world. Our CEO teamed up with some very well respected and influential markets figures and campaigned for Brexit. Not everyone in the city (and London for that matter) was on the remain side as the press would like everyone to believe. It is not all doom and gloom and things will stabilize. We need people to be positive as actually talking down the country/markets actually assists leading to it.

As for pinball prices, haven't they been going up in price for a number of years now anyway? Supply and demand like everything else.
 
There have been a number of articles/ press/ tv/ blogs about the level of ignorance of certain brexit voters. For example well educated metropolitan types interviewing folk with broad regional accents living in council houses and intellectually bullying, then mocking them.

I wonder how many remain voters truly understood what remain means. I saw students arguing that they wanted to be able to travel to europe, to study in europe, to work in europe etc. I wonder how many of these guys realised that europe has had visa free travel for decades. There have been student exchange programmes for decades. British people have worked in Europe for decades. Europeans have worked here for decades. Long before the Maastricht Treaty and this experiment in political union emerged.

I think we need to be realistic here.

Rightly or wrongly there is no intellectual or moral capacity threshold required for UK voters
There are ignorant voters of all political persuasions.
There are bigoted/ racist/ anti-semetic voters of all political persuasions.

You cannot sensibly argue that brexit voters, in aggregate are more or less stupid than remain voters unless you prove this with substantive statistical analysis. Claiming Non-London/ Non-Scottish/ Non-Northern Irish/ old/ poor folk are stupid in the absence of proof seems jaw droppingly ignorant to me.

And the remainers were doubtless happy to count the votes of the ignorant/ bigoted/ racist/ anti-semitic folk who voted their way

So what is the story here ? Ignorant/ bigoted/ racist/ anti-semitic voters only count when they vote for the right cause ?

Unhappy remainers can draw comfort from the fact that the eu is a profoundly undemocratic institution. It hates democracy. It has overturned democratically elected governments. It has installed its own people when it does not like the elected leaders that the nation chose itself. It has ignored the results of referenda. It has forced dissenting populations to keep having referenda until they yield the right result.

I Think it's a given that the ones interviewed were no doubt pulled in for 'press reasons' and it is not necessarily a good example of the general intelligence of the majority......similarly the guy in London with a petition to get London to remain in the EU is clearly off his head.....but not in his eyes no doubt.....it would however mean pinball machines would have to be exported to anyone outside of the M25.....and thus be applicable to the appropriate taxes.... I was happy either way and felt both arguments were pretty poorly represented by both sides. However, it was more a case of which was the lesser of two evils. The problem with politicians is I wouldn't trust any of them......seen too many u-turns over the years.....we just need to make the most of the cards that we have been dealt, otherwise it won't ever work.....as for pinball prices, unless there is a deluge of unemployment and owners need the money then no reason they will drop.
 
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