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Nostalgia and over/underated games (RS, FH, TAF etc)

David_Vi

David_Vi

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Look, I know I appear obsessed with Road Show, maybe I am… 🤔 but stick with me here.

Being someone who didn't grow up playing pinball, I don't have that nostalgia for certain pins. Since discovering real Pinball in 2018 I've discovered machine blindly, with no preconceptions or nostalgia.

I started to wonder how much of an impact nostalgia (and theme but I'll get onto that later) have on a games rating.

When I say rating, I mean the Pinside 100, (which I know has to be taken with a pinch of salt) and IPDB top 100 (which I think might be a better reflection for some titles).

Rating often has an impact on prices as games become more sought after.

So onto my point of discussion….

I'll use Road Show and Fun House as my first example, I know RS has its vocal haters but for the most part people seem to think fondly of it… but in the top 100 on Pinside it's 74th.

Funhouse is rated so much higher at 46th.
To me as a relative newbie, RS is like FH with better rules, more to do but has a similar layout. You could say with a retheme it could be FH2.
So why is it rated so low? Is the theme a major factor?

Onto Twilight Zone, a game that is often seen as one of the top games of all time. I just can't get into it, I can appreciate it but I don't understand why compared to other games (RS Again) it's so much more highly rated?

The next victim is The Addams Family… a game I am aware was absolutely everywhere. But another I can enjoy but don't think it's that great. I look at my DE JP and think in some ways it's very similar to TAF with the modes and even layout but it's DE and seen as clunky. (I think DEJP is like TAF and WW had a baby).
I'm not saying DE JP is better than TAF just it isn't as bad as ratings show when comparing them.
I just don't understand the hype for TAF?

How much does nostalgia play into ratings, prices and how sought after games are?
The same goes for theme, maybe RS's theme is a bit marmite compared to FH (I could see that being the case but still the game has so much more!)

And any other games you think are underated compared to similar games?🤔

I'm not necessarily after people telling me I'm wrong, this is opinion, but I'm interested in a discussion about nostalgia and why some games aren't rated highly compared to others when if you look at the content and layout they are on par if not better.

Feel free to tell me why Road Show sucks compared to a similar game like Fun House, maybe I'm missing something? 🤔😆
 
Had no idea you liked Roadshow mate you should of said 😝

I think nostalgia plays a huge part in it, people generally look back fondly with rose tinted glasses sometimes. You know all the "awful" gottliebs I'm nostalgic for and adore (Tee'd off included) so I think generally when people see a pin they have fond memories off they're happy to fork out a bit more cash than potentially the games rough valuation is... And I think that goes for rating as well. Having nostalgia for something brings back good memories and that crazy rush of serotonin means you'll passionately tell everyone what an amazing game it is when potentially you're overlooking aspects that people without nostalgic feelings towards it can see.

That's just my opinion though, I grew up around gottliebs, Roadshow, Elvis and Grand Prix 😂
 
A great big pinch of salt.

New stuff will make it to the top because it's new to people, not something that's been around 25-30 years. So over a long enough timeline new stuff will drop back down the list unless it really is good and stands the test of time.

A good licence makes a big difference + mixed with nostalgia x how other people rave about titles = something that out performs other titles.
A cool gimmick makes a difference too. Be it a hammer that knocks a ball through the playfield or a dinosaur that grabs the ball. Those things make a Premium outshine a Pro.

Are the heads in Roadshow capable of the stuff Rudy does? It might be as simple as that!

Course I could well be wrong again! :P
 
For sure nostalgia plays a part probably more so for casual players more than anything else. First game I wanted to buy was BOP because when I was at Uni I could start the multball, T2 I used to hate because I found it so freaking hard. BOP is not the great game I thought it was (and I sold mine) T2 I used to think was a bogie game for me as I would always lose on it. Matt brought a nice playing one into the club and I spent alot of time killing the demon on it. Now I'll pick it in a tournament setting.

And thus I also think that your own skill and ability to play the game plays a part. If you find a game hard then human nature pushes you towards not liking it (see what Craig said in his intro about Star Wars) - I used to loathe The Walking Dead because when I played it - it brutalised me! But I forced myself to play it one night at Northern Lights (thanks Kevlar!) and once I'd got the jist of it I ordered one - its my favourite game.

I see alot of folks on here have a game for a week and decide to chop it in (Walking dead being one such game, AIQ another) and its pretty depressing because they just couldn't have put enough effort into playing it to learn from it. I consider myself lucky in that I've been to Banning, PHOF and Pinburgh and played some of the biggest collections of games. I spend a huge amount of time trying to get a feel for a game when I can. This is how I got into older games. Meteor at Pinburgh super impressed me, then Quicksilver and Ali, Alien Poker, I500 and The Shadow seeing how well these games can be played makes me want to learn and love them more. Pinburgh probably changed how I think about games entirely because you have to play them when you get allocated the bank, even with El Toro :D

I always look at the ratings as a compass rather than a sat nav of pinball; but with the hundreds if not thousands of games out there, there is something for everyone.

I remember though when my B66 turned up, I was literally running out the door at work to get home to play it. Same with IMDN and TNA.

BTW I sent you a challenge on Scorbit for RS :D :D :D

Cheers,
Neil.
 
Neil McRae said:
For sure nostalgia plays a part probably more so for casual players more than anything else. First game I wanted to buy was BOP because when I was at Uni I could start the multball, T2 I used to hate because I found it so freaking hard. BOP is not the great game I thought it was (and I sold mine) T2 I used to think was a bogie game for me as I would always lose on it. Matt brought a nice playing one into the club and I spent alot of time killing the demon on it. Now I'll pick it in a tournament setting.

And thus I also think that your own skill and ability to play the game plays a part. If you find a game hard then human nature pushes you towards not liking it (see what Craig said in his intro about Star Wars) - I used to loathe The Walking Dead because when I played it - it brutalised me! But I forced myself to play it one night at Northern Lights (thanks Kevlar!) and once I'd got the jist of it I ordered one - its my favourite game.

I see alot of folks on here have a game for a week and decide to chop it in (Walking dead being one such game, AIQ another) and its pretty depressing because they just couldn't have put enough effort into playing it to learn from it. I consider myself lucky in that I've been to Banning, PHOF and Pinburgh and played some of the biggest collections of games. I spend a huge amount of time trying to get a feel for a game when I can. This is how I got into older games. Meteor at Pinburgh super impressed me, then Quicksilver and Ali, Alien Poker, I500 and The Shadow seeing how well these games can be played makes me want to learn and love them more. Pinburgh probably changed how I think about games entirely because you have to play them when you get allocated the bank, even with El Toro :D

I always look at the ratings as a compass rather than a sat nav of pinball; but with the hundreds if not thousands of games out there, there is something for everyone.

I remember though when my B66 turned up, I was literally running out the door at work to get home to play it. Same with IMDN and TNA.

BTW I sent you a challenge on Scorbit for RS :D :D :D

Cheers,
Neil.
Click to expand...

Very good points. I do find it odd how people move games on so quickly, especially new ones! I think my turtles had less than 100 plays when we got it!

I've played hundreds of games and still can't get far 🤣
Same with Road Show, it took me nearly a year to get to super payday, then I got there twice in one session. I suppose I was still a new player when I got it and my skills were levelling up slowly over time and more pin playing experiences. Similar to your story about The Walking Dead, my first encounter with Road Show was at Flip out in 2019, played a bit but hated it...(before that I only knew MM & AFM, the easy to learn classics) Thought it was hard and boring. Then one day I had another go and it clicked. I got an insane score (for me at that time) and felt amazing. Maybe that's my form of nostalgia for it, just really recent.

There's definitely a few games I've had to play at events that have opened my eyes to different types of games, Domino helped with me getting into the modern games . But I still can't get into. TZ even after playing it many times at different places.. weird.


I just saw your challenge.. that's close to my GC score 😳 I guess I suck or the new one at Flip out plays really well!
I don't think I have time to attempt to beat it with the state of the house and work ATM... But I might note it down as an aim 🤣
 
For every top score there are thousands of average scores!

I'm not a good player I have to put myself into the mindset of playing good when I need to, not being tired, having my headphones, cleaned glasses, and being able purely to focus on the task at hand, it doesn't always work or sometimes it takes me a little while to warm up. I tend to prefer tournaments with multiple days as I get a chance to sync to my environment. When I'm streaming I play terrible because of the streaming distraction.
I always try to have a walk up to a game strategy for as many games as I can, and then I have a - I've never played this before mode, where I take my time, read the rule card, I used to ask folks for strategies on games I didn't know, I found that would always end up in doom because the pressure on yourself them is hard. If you only know a little about a game then you can go into with a mindset of- well I don't really know this so I've nothing to lose. For sure watch the player in front of you.

Great players are able to adapt very quickly, you see Craig, Nick, Matt, PUP, David and Rich able to adapt super quickly and always play well.

The event I'm playing at and the environment in it has a massive impact to me, if its noisy and there is a lot of **** to deal with or you are rammed I typically play terrible and take a bit of time to adjust to it, but practise practise practise and get experience is key.

Neil.
 
Ignore the ratings. it’s all bs. if we all liked the same, we’d be in big trouble.

play as many as you can. share the love, move your machines in and out, remember there is only ever one real “keeper” in any collection. all the rest should be played, conquered (or abandoned), then moved on so someone else can experience.
 
AlanJ said:
Ignore the ratings. it’s all bs. if we all liked the same, we’d be in big trouble.

play as many as you can. share the love, move your machines in and out, remember there is only ever one real “keeper” in any collection. all the rest should be played, conquered (or abandoned), then moved on so someone else can experience.
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Only 1 keeper....? Nobody told me that when I first signed up to this world 😂
 
Yep - its true - there is only one true keeper in any collection - if you have to sell all your pins except one.........
 
Lots of games ride on nostalgia and/or theme.

TAF will always be a top rated game as it was ground breaking when it came out. In hindsight the rules are relatively shallow but would still be the last game I sold in fbi got rid of everything.
 
A friend has a Roadshow and I used to have a Funhouse. I only sold the funhouse as Tron was incoming and I felt it had a similar shots and for some reason I could play funhouse till the cows come home. Anyways he used to say Roadshow was the superior game. However the theme and circus nature of the pin. Your more likely to see Pat do a Funhouse 2 than a Roadshow 2. Not sure what that says..

Regarding pinside top 100 I would say it’s a fairly good representation of what the top machines are.
 
For a great pinball machine you need the whole package. Games that have the complete package tend to be the more valuable ones.

Art
Gameplay
Call outs
Music
Theme

So many games are let down by a weak performance in one or more areas.

Many data East and stern have rubbish artwork versus Williams, Bally and the older Gottliebs.

Addams remains so popular as it scores highly in every area. I have had mine over 20 years. The use of the actual actors for the call outs. The superb artwork based on ever classic black. Iconic theme and music. Brilliant integration of the modes - especially seance with the magnets, auto flipper and knocker

Fathom is probably the top Bally SS title and it the complete package with sumptuous art, great gameplay. The other standout Bally SS game is Centaur which again is the complete package.

Something like Roadshow has too many flaws. In my opinion it has a weak theme, weak art, poor sounds and callouts, linear modes. In some aspects it is actually a better game than Addams - but it gets dragged down by its low points. I didn't keep Roadshow for more than a few weeks.

Earthshaker is Iconic and has many great features but is crippled by its scoring system. I took down the high score on my old ES the day I bought it by simply by shooting the ramp over and over. Much as I loved so many aspects of game, I sold it within weeks for this reason.

I play my fish tales more than any other game, but its music is poor, gameplay basic, very few modes ... but I actually don't mind this
 
Roadshow is a brilliant game - it's just that many people misunderstand it. Here's why:

1. Road construction theme. In fact it's not about road construction, despite the big dozer blade. It's about travelling across America, the spirit of Route 66, the great road trip. Brilliant theme.

2. The music is crap. In fact it's just that it's country and western music, and C&W is not too trendy. It's actually fantastic music for a pinball machine.

3. Cheesey callouts. In fact the call outs are really well done, especially by Carlene Carter, step daughter of music legend Johnny Cash. Funny, sassy, silly. What more do you want?

4 Bad artwork. Wrong! It's superb, and who doesn't love a fish?

5. Too linear. Nope, that's been fixed with new Roms from that Scandy chappie

6 Poor game play. Nonsense. This is actually a desceptively deep game, with lots of way to play it. The fact that you can choose to invest in souvenirs and then cash them in for 2, 3, 4, or 5 times the points you paid for them is clever, and clever spending brings you beneath the extra ball threshold for multiple extra balls if you play it right. Getting souvenirs, visiting enough places, getting the bonus multiplier up = big points.

There is no doubt that this is the greatest game that ever was and ever will be, the real deal, the complete package, and I'll brook no disagreement.

Nuff said.
 
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Mfresh said:
Roadshow is a brilliant game - it's just that many people misunderstand it. Here's why:

1. Road construction theme. In fact it's not about road construction, despite the big dozer blade. It's about travelling across America, the spirit of Route 66, the great road trip. Brilliant theme.

2. The music is crap. In fact it's just that it's country and western music, and C&W is not to trendy. It's actually fantastic music for a pinball machine.

3. Cheesey callouts. In fact the call outs are really well done, especially by Carlene Carter, step daughter of music legend Johnny Cash. Funny, sassy, silly. What more do you want?

4 Bad artwork. Wrong! It's superb, and who doesn't love a fish?

5. Too linear. Nope, that's been fixed with new Roms from that Scandy chappie

6 Poor game play. Nonsense. This is actually a desceptively deep game, with lots of way to play it. The fact that you can choose to invest in souvenirs and then cash them in for 2, 3, 4, or 5 times the points you paid for them is clever, and clever spending brings you beneath the extra ball threshold for multiple extra balls if you play it right. Getting souvenirs, visiting enough places, getting the bonus multiplier up = big points.

There is no doubt that this is the greatest game that ever was and ever will be, the real deal, the complete package, and I'll brook no disagreement.

Nuff said.
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Are you single? I mean, I think I have a girlfriend but I'm sure we can come to an arrangement.
 
I bought a TAF purely for nostalgia - used to play it in the pub near our first house in the early 90s.

People knock it as boring "ramp, scoop, ramp, scoop...." but if you play it like that, you are spoiling your own fun. Playing the modes and/or concentrating on multiball is much more fun. The magnets make it for me.

I can understand good players finding it too easy, but it suits my lowly skill level.
 
Roadshow is crap for one overriding factor for me.

The hideous plastic heads. Who the **** wants to see that?

Ditto T3 and funhouse.

I honestly tried to like RS and had one for a couple of years but it’s so butt ugly that it had to go.

Never did work out if you should buy souvenirs or not.
 
I usually hate ventriloquist dummies and anything resembling them but I've never found Red and Ted creepy / scary, personally! I like the call outs too, I think they're fun (one of the most quotable pinball machines out there, in my opinion!). But I suppose I have to - although maybe not anymore 😂
 
David_Vi said:
Look, I know I appear obsessed with Road Show, maybe I am… 🤔 but stick with me here.

Being someone who didn't grow up playing pinball, I don't have that nostalgia for certain pins. Since discovering real Pinball in 2018 I've discovered machine blindly, with no preconceptions or nostalgia.

I started to wonder how much of an impact nostalgia (and theme but I'll get onto that later) have on a games rating.

When I say rating, I mean the Pinside 100, (which I know has to be taken with a pinch of salt) and IPDB top 100 (which I think might be a better reflection for some titles).

Rating often has an impact on prices as games become more sought after.

So onto my point of discussion….

I'll use Road Show and Fun House as my first example, I know RS has its vocal haters but for the most part people seem to think fondly of it… but in the top 100 on Pinside it's 74th.

Funhouse is rated so much higher at 46th.
To me as a relative newbie, RS is like FH with better rules, more to do but has a similar layout. You could say with a retheme it could be FH2.
So why is it rated so low? Is the theme a major factor?

Onto Twilight Zone, a game that is often seen as one of the top games of all time. I just can't get into it, I can appreciate it but I don't understand why compared to other games (RS Again) it's so much more highly rated?

The next victim is The Addams Family… a game I am aware was absolutely everywhere. But another I can enjoy but don't think it's that great. I look at my DE JP and think in some ways it's very similar to TAF with the modes and even layout but it's DE and seen as clunky. (I think DEJP is like TAF and WW had a baby).
I'm not saying DE JP is better than TAF just it isn't as bad as ratings show when comparing them.
I just don't understand the hype for TAF?

How much does nostalgia play into ratings, prices and how sought after games are?
The same goes for theme, maybe RS's theme is a bit marmite compared to FH (I could see that being the case but still the game has so much more!)

And any other games you think are underated compared to similar games?🤔

I'm not necessarily after people telling me I'm wrong, this is opinion, but I'm interested in a discussion about nostalgia and why some games aren't rated highly compared to others when if you look at the content and layout they are on par if not better.

Feel free to tell me why Road Show sucks compared to a similar game like Fun House, maybe I'm missing something? 🤔😆
Click to expand...
I’m in something of a similar place to you - I discovered pinball in 2021 and have no nostalgia whatsoever. I’d only played a Tomy Astroshooter pinball as a kid.

With Funhouse, it’s definitely a personal preference thing. My five-year-old son (who definitely has no nostalgia) loves Funhouse on iPad and explains that he loves hitting Rudy and he likes how Rudy talks. Adult FH fans say the same thing - they just love being trash talked by Rudy and hitting him in the mouth. I have no idea why Roadshow doesn’t attract the same love, as I find the toys, graphics, modes and theme to be superior. However, I suspect it’s because the work crew in Roadshow are sympathetic (so, you have no desire to hit them) whereas Rudy is a complete c**k.

I can’t get into either TAF or TZ, but - again - my five year old absolutely LOVES TAF. He likes the theme (he says “I like that it’s about a family and I’m in a family”), he likes the toys and he hums the music. I find the modes a bit mediocre and the whole thing pretty forgettable in the current year, but it does have that ‘whole package’ feel that @DRD mentions. With TZ, it feels that the technology and code was exceptional for its age but, playing it now, in 2022, with no thematic reference and multiple years of games that succeeded it, it does feel a bit “yeah, it’s a ceramic ball and some magnets, and you’ve got to shoot two ramps to qualify a mode… so what?”

I personally feel FT should rate higher than #61, but I suspect it’s stymised by the Red State America-esque fishing theme. I, also, recently played Demolition Man and that DEFINITELY deserves to be above #107 on the Pinside Top 100, but is totally let down by the art package and theme.
 
I actually think Fish Tales is in the right area. It's a very simple game but fun. It's not a deep game.
But for what it is it's well done.

Personally I love the music and call outs on Fish Tales, it works well.

The full package of TAF compared to JP makes a lot of sense. TAF has the original cast, music and good artwork.
JP has bad call outs, no original score except a few seconds at game start and the artwork is a bit shoddy.
(Although I like the playfield art ,even though it's awful but that's now).
If it had the proper score mixed in with some original music and proper call outs from the movie Iike to imagine it would be rated similarly.

It's already been said by @Mfresh but those criticisms of Road Show are misunderstood or actually the reasons why it is a fantastic game.
It has at least 20 modes with great animations, differing music, great call outs (I don't think my stern Turtles has even half the modes and they all feel Very similar). I think the way the modes tie in with the sound and animations is great and I don't see that a lot with the modern games. I know it's common with the B/W era but RS seems to have it in spades.

The theme is a road trip across the states with two great characters who are there in front of you, not on a screen.

I still hear new call outs and little secrets I've never heard before.
Different souvenirs and ways of scoring big.

I think it's an underappreciated game.
I even like the song now 🤣


Turned into a RS defense 🥴 I know everyone has different opinions, however I'll stand by my opinion that Road show is slightly underappreciated, especially when you compare to games like FH or TZ.
Sorry.
 
If we discount the recent trend of any new game being given an instant 10 by their owners after 2 plays!

Nostalgia may play a part, but really who is rating TAF now, other than people very new to pinball.

What does need to be taken in to consideration is how good (perceived) that game was compared to everything else around it when it came out. TAF was right at the start of DMDs, had fantastic film callouts well-integrated, simple and easy to play, and then the POWER - which no-one had ever seen anything like that before. It could certainly be considered the greatest pin ever - AT THE TIME.

If you had never seen a pin at all, so had no point of reference, and were then asked to rate TAF & GZ or TAF & DP I doubt TAF would be getting rated so highly.

The fact is not many people would go back and change their ratings and so older ratings take more significance than they really should.

IMHO there isn't a pre 2000 game that I'd want in a small home collection as I just don't think they have the depth or longevity of most modern games, but each to their own.

You can't really rely on anyone else's opinion/rating as to what is good - everyone's taste is different, just like music tastes.
 
Just here for the Roadshow love in.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but anyone who disagree's with the fact that Roadshow is the greatest machine ever made.....well, they are wrong and myself @Mfresh and @David_Vi are going to heaven whilst the rest of you blasphemers are going straight to hell.

For my Roadshow geeks out there, a couple of little secrets. 1, the secret target, Lawlor is a genius, I'll say no more. 2. 5x Atlanta for 150M, I'll say no more, unless you want me to!
 
David_Vi said:
I actually think Fish Tales is in the right area. It's a very simple game but fun. It's not a deep game.
But for what it is it's well done.
Click to expand...

I think it depends what you think makes a pin great (apart from the music, callouts, etc.). For me, there are two ways that a pin can provide long-lasting satisfaction.
  • First, it can have really deep rules with loads of modes, ability to stack multi balls, etc. in a way that makes it a challenge for the expert player.
  • Second, it can have challenging shots - so it's hard to do well, even if the rules are quite simple.
Because we don't have much unallocated space in the downstairs of our house, I chose my first two pins because they had a reputation for providing an ongoing challenge.
  • LoTR is notorious for the difficulty of getting to the final wizard mode, Valinor. I'd read people who owned LoTR for ten years without reaching that mode.
  • Fish Tales is infamous for having a super jackpot that even expert championship players find it hard to reach more than once in a game.
There's a fixation on PinballInfo (and elsewhere) I've noticed with the idea that a deep ruleset is the main way that a pin is enjoyable in the home setting. So, modern Sterns are automatically better than, say, Flash Gordon (or Fish Tales or Total Nuclear Annihilation), regardless of the actual quality of the shots, because there is a more complex ruleset.

I have notorious problems memorising rules and, thus, tend to enjoy the latter (challenging shots) more than the former (difficult rules). It's a general pattern in games I play - I also prefer tabletop (board and card) games where mastery depends on the quality of player interaction and not on understanding enormous rulesets. This places me in contrast to the predominant culture in hobby board gaming where 'great games' are often defined as strategy games with massive rulesets where winning comes down to your ability to memorise a 30-minute rules explanation on first play.

For a game with a simple ruleset where mastery depends on achieving a small number of shots with extremely high accuracy, Fish Tales is one of the greatest pins of all time. I have owned it since July and my estimation of it has only risen since then.

Obviously, the early B/W pins that try to deliver deep rulesets will, for the most part, come up short when compared to modern Sterns because computer tech has moved on dramatically since the 1990s. This is why TAF and TZ (and Tales of the Arabian Knights) seem pretty mediocre by modern standards. There's also a group of pins that don't deliver long-term satisfaction because they neither have challenging shots nor deep code. For example, I love Monster Bash - love the music, love the callouts "I hope the monster is as studly as you, doctor" but, despite being a rubbish pinball player, I can almost get to the final wizard mode on both iPad and in real life, and suspect I would get bored quite quickly if I owned one.
 
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Now almost everyone has bashed TZ and TAF I expect to see some bargain Addams Family and Twilight Zones come up for sale!

Any minute now....
any minute now.....
 
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I resent RS.

When I was little boy our local leisure centre had a FT, which I loved playing.

One day, when I returned to the leisure centre, I saw a RS occupying the place where FT once stood. Okay I thought I'll give this a go, but I didn't enjoy it one bit and there it would stay for years and years and every time I returned to the leisure centre, I hoped that FT would reappear, but it never did. Instead those two lifeless heads would stare back at me, almost taunting me, almost saying to me that they were the new kids on the block, they were the ones who had taken FT away from me and they were here to stay.

So f*** you Red and Ted.
 
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Funnily my most and least overrated are both WPC era.

Overrated, TAF.
LInear gameplay, that horrible skillshot and that awful scoop with the magnets.

Underrated, Johnny Mnemonic
Brilliant gameplay, music is top notch, 2 player strategy of blocking the opponents opportunities at the matrix. POWERDOWN!
 
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