New Stern insider connected system.

[DRD]

This thing may have some uses.

BUT, you simply cannot compare the scores achieved on two different pinball machines. Just the tilt setting makes this impossible. Let alone - position of outlane posts, playfield angle, playfield speed, flipper strength, flipper angles, slingshot sensitivity, type of rubbers used, kickout strength, smoothness of the roll down the inlanes to the flippers, game settings, exact position of wires inserted into the playfield

On a title we all know, The Addams Family - the score is fundamentally affected by how the swamp kickout bounces across the flippers and this varies enormously between games and would be extremely difficult to harmonise even if you had examples stood side by side

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Thanks for the thoughtful response

I agree that connecting pinball tables online makes things easier for competitive players.

For me, I have two specific concerns about Stern’s specific tech:

a) Around pinball machines (not my work computers, which are all Apple), I like a ‘freedom to tinker’. Some of the discussion of Stern’s tech here and on Pinside has focused on the possibility that connecting pinball machines to the internet via a proprietary technology means it’s harder to tinker. Stern, quite sensibly, in other areas of its business, is trying to maximise its profits, and internet-enabling technology runs the risk of being used to scrape existing owners for money and potentially police IP. There are a *lot* of bad practices in other areas of gaming around trying to extract as much money from purchasers, as possible, and to prevent them customising existing property, and it’s not something I personally like to see creeping in.

b) Although the tech is good for pinball arcades in the short term, it’s potentially bad for arcade owners in the long term because it creates a direct relationship between Stern and players, rather than with the arcade. Your account works with other Stern machines in a different arcade, but not with other brands of machine in the same arcade.

I take the point that Stern was, for a while, the only manufacturer of pinball tables and has - single handedly - kept the market going until relatively recently. However, having seen both Williams machines and the (very) modern Sterns in action, the build quality simply isn’t the same, and it’s unclear (to me) how the gameplay is better between a game like Stranger Things and AFM. Speaking as someone who plays a lot of hobby board games: more complex rules does not equal better game.

there is nothing to stop you from tinkering on any pinball machine. Stern though have a right to protect their IP. How would you like it if someone took your work, changed the colour of an asset in that work and then sold it on for money? Let me tell you though, if you can't generate a return on something then it tends to not last very long.

Stern's are more tinkerable than any William's game unless you are good with disassembled code; having seen how hard that is good luck! But the only reason Stern games can be tinkered with is because they were lazy in putting code releases out. Stern's game code has almost no security and in some releases still has symbols within it, a side effect of this is that its allowed folks to change things. Stern have had serious feedback from the copyright owners of themed games that they need to protect IP or licences will become more expensive (and thus games). Williams games have no more security other than in obscurity.

Stern decided it didn't want to pay for the movie assets for JP2 yet most JP2's now have them in it and Amblin and Universal quite rightly are challenging Stern to fix that.

In my view Stern's build quality is significantly better than Williams but its hard to compare games that are twenty years old and games that are twenty days old, CGC's remakes have better build quality than the originals and I can say that having owned both. Stern is 95% of the market.

The same argument can be made for AFM and MM yet I have both and I have STh. In pinball there are more things the same than different, maybe apart from some of the games coming from Keith but even he admits to having influences from older games.

Neil.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

This thing may have some uses.

BUT, you simply cannot compare the scores achieved on two different pinball machines. Just the tilt setting makes this impossible. Let alone - position of outlane posts, playfield angle, playfield speed, flipper strength, flipper angles, slingshot sensitivity, type of rubbers used, kickout strength, smoothness of the roll down the inlanes to the flippers, game settings, exact position of wires inserted into the playfield

On a title we all know, The Addams Family - the score is fundamentally affected by how the swamp kickout bounces across the flippers and this varies enormously between games and would be extremely difficult to harmonise even if you had examples stood side by side

The score is fundamentally affected by the player's skill level more than any other parameter.

Neil.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Your post says more about you than it does about me!

Just because it's possible to connect things to the internet DOES NOT mean you SHOULD connect everything!

Stern will push this "connectivity" rubbish for a couple of years and then will slink away after they discover most don't want it and it will die off, just the same as "The Pin".

Actually, The Pin is a great concept, it's just that Stern in not able to make it so it can sell at the correct price for this product and its target market.

Why not?

How many "The Pins" has stern sold?

in 1993, two years into running our own Internet business we downloaded a game called Doom, we ordered pizza (sadly by phone back then) and we played until the early hours night after night after night. My business partner said it would NEVER catch on. I was lucky to be probably one of the first few thousand people to play on line - now the online games market has 3.2billion players and its growing massively, and some of the best players are striking deals that only a decade ago were the same sort of deal top sportsmen were signing.

JJP games are online now, CGC's will be soon as well as American Pinball. You don't have to participate but others will for sure.

 

[VeeMonroe]

there is nothing to stop you from tinkering on any pinball machine. Stern though have a right to protect their IP. How would you like it if someone took your work, changed the colour of an asset in that work and then sold it on for money? Let me tell you though, if you can't generate a return on something then it tends to not last very long.

Stern's are more tinkerable than any William's game unless you are good with disassembled code; having seen how hard that is good luck! But the only reason Stern games can be tinkered with is because they were lazy in putting code releases out. Stern's game code has almost no security and in some releases still has symbols within it, a side effect of this is that its allowed folks to change things. Stern have had serious feedback from the copyright owners of themed games that they need to protect IP or licences will become more expensive (and thus games). Williams games have no more security other than in obscurity.

Stern decided it didn't want to pay for the movie assets for JP2 yet most JP2's now have them in it and Amblin and Universal quite rightly are challenging Stern to fix that.

I take your point on the movie assets.

My experience in other areas of gaming is that policing of IP and tampering goes WAYYYY beyond the obvious use cases. Typically, it serves to stop *any* third-party modification of stuff, including stuff where the manufacturer uses the resulting monopoly to hike prices and/or where they had no intention of providing an alternative to the third-party asset.

Often, there is absurd, clumsy overreach - to the point where it decreases demand for the original product because the legal wrangling restricts the community around it.

It's perfectly legit to have concerns about a pinball machine that, potentially, could download update code automatically and shutdown if you, for example, added an unauthorised third-party mod.

I mean, yeah, we currently have this system for electronic books on Amazon and streamable music. However, there's a difference between paying for a £0.99 music track that you don't really own and iTunes can pull without warning, and paying for a £6-10k pin that turns into a brick at the whim of the manufacturer...

In my view Stern's build quality is significantly better than Williams but its hard to compare games that are twenty years old and games that are twenty days old, CGC's remakes have better build quality than the originals and I can say that having owned both. Stern is 95% of the market.

Neil - I have some insight (a little bit) into the comparison between old Williams and newer Stern because I had *NEVER* played a full-sized physical pinball machine until about two months ago. This makes me a clueless arrogant loud-mouthed n00b (I admit this 100%), but it also means that I experienced A:IQ, ST:TNG, TAF and TZ for the first time on exactly the same day in exactly the same venue (Flip Out - thank you for setting that up ). I went to Chief Coffee in Chiswick about a week later and played DP, STh, GB and a remake of MM and MB.

I find the CGC remakes to be visually, on first glance, indistinguishable from highly-blinged and refurbished Williams originals. The screens are slightly bigger and the pixel density is higher on the remakes, but not enough that this would be a major factor in a purchasing decision. I, personally, find the Sterns I've seen up to about 2016 to also be pretty good quality - at least, on the surface. The copy of GB I played felt pretty solid and the playfield was well-populated with custom assets. However, from Batman '66 onwards, the Sterns feel somehow 'skimpy' and 'mean' in terms of the 'weightiness' of the physical body and the stuff on the playfield.

In general, I find the Spike 2 Sterns I've seen to have pretty empty playfields. The Pros compound the problem with these horrible plastic stand-ups, which seem designed to remind you that you didn't buy a Premium. It feels like the same con job that goes on with Kickstarter miniatures-heavy board games (I'm a serious hobby board gamer) where you need to pay a s***load of money to get miniatures for all the models. Otherwise, you have cardboard tokens for half the game - just to remind you that you didn't shell out $500+, sight unseen, for all the game expansions.

A:IQ is the epitome of this - it is a handful of metal ramps, a little magnet tower and a little spinning thing. Without the colourful artwork, flashing LEDs and the big LCD screen, it would look like total pinball minimalism. Having played it, it feels heavily dependent, for gameplay, on the code and not the physical mechanics on the table. I mean, obviously, skillful shooting is important, but the gameplay seems to be largely driven by the code. This is what I meant, disparagingly, like 'it feels like a video game'. I keep wondering if a sufficiently talented coder could now make a playable pinball machine with three flippers, a scoop, a single wire-form ramp and a couple of thin metal lane guides - and nothing else (you know: shoot the scoop to start mode. Shoot at 45 degrees twice into the ramp to fight Godzilla).

I appreciate that the Stern team are battling to survive with low sales in a niche market, but playing it on the same day as ST:TNG (and with a WH20 in the same room), I ended up feeling that they were trying to rip off owners by supplying only a couple of metal ramps with some custom artwork. I've haven't been under the hood, but I was concerned that it didn't bode well for the build quality there either, especially as - in comparison with something like Genie - the machines already look kinda flimsy. Having watched the Australian pinball expert dude's videos, it kinda confirmed my bias that there obviously was a lot of corner cutting going on, although I understand that - by comparison - the B/W machines that are still running are obviously the better-built ones.

So, it's not I dislike the newer machines. It's just that, having encountered them for the first time at exactly the same time as a huge range of older machines, they don't stand out. Thus, I don't understand all the hype over new machines and, from the perspective of someone buying a machine, I wouldn't - personally - pay the astronomical NIB price.

 

[johnwhitfield]

There’s a big difference between the 90s games and new games in terms of longevity in a home environment.

AFM, whitewater etc are great games (I own both) but in terms of rules and depth of game they come up lacking in a home environment compared to many of the new games.

If you stick a kid in a room full of pins AFM and WCS always come out well as there are obvious aims (shoot the saucer, castle, goal). Compare that with GOT or GoG and before you’ve even plunged you have to make key decisions.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with 90s games but they were designed for people to walk up to play and enjoy rather than ponder over strategies.

There 100% room for both types in a collection

 

[Deleted member 2463]

The Aussie has an agenda with Stern and is patently wrong on a number of points in that stupid video. I’ve had one board failure and it was a CPU failure replaced in 24 hours and I own more spike 2 games than anyone else in the UK (maybe?)

Stranger things and AfM has a single coil difference and that’s because STh has one less pop bumper.

Batman 66 has one of the most complex mechs ever made and if you look at targets to hit there is very little difference between it and MM or AFM or ToM.




TNG has a complex underground rather than ramps - does it add to the game play over a rail? I don’t so and you spend more time making it work than playing it (even when it was brand new).

Go look at the underside of the game that’s were you learn how much was put into a game.

Neil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[mufcmufc]

I take your point on the movie assets.

My experience in other areas of gaming is that policing of IP and tampering goes WAYYYY beyond the obvious use cases. Typically, it serves to stop *any* third-party modification of stuff, including stuff where the manufacturer uses the resulting monopoly to hike prices and/or where they had no intention of providing an alternative to the third-party asset.

Often, there is absurd, clumsy overreach - to the point where it decreases demand for the original product because the legal wrangling restricts the community around it.

It's perfectly legit to have concerns about a pinball machine that, potentially, could download update code automatically and shutdown if you, for example, added an unauthorised third-party mod.

I mean, yeah, we currently have this system for electronic books on Amazon and streamable music. However, there's a difference between paying for a £0.99 music track that you don't really own and iTunes can pull without warning, and paying for a £6-10k pin that turns into a brick at the whim of the manufacturer...



Neil - I have some insight (a little bit) into the comparison between old Williams and newer Stern because I had *NEVER* played a full-sized physical pinball machine until about two months ago. This makes me a clueless arrogant loud-mouthed n00b (I admit this 100%), but it also means that I experienced A:IQ, ST:TNG, TAF and TZ for the first time on exactly the same day in exactly the same venue (Flip Out - thank you for setting that up ). I went to Chief Coffee in Chiswick about a week later and played DP, STh, GB and a remake of MM and MB.

I find the CGC remakes to be visually, on first glance, indistinguishable from highly-blinged and refurbished Williams originals. The screens are slightly bigger and the pixel density is higher on the remakes, but not enough that this would be a major factor in a purchasing decision. I, personally, find the Sterns I've seen up to about 2016 to also be pretty good quality - at least, on the surface. The copy of GB I played felt pretty solid and the playfield was well-populated with custom assets. However, from Batman '66 onwards, the Sterns feel somehow 'skimpy' and 'mean' in terms of the 'weightiness' of the physical body and the stuff on the playfield.

In general, I find the Spike 2 Sterns I've seen to have pretty empty playfields. The Pros compound the problem with these horrible plastic stand-ups, which seem designed to remind you that you didn't buy a Premium. It feels like the same con job that goes on with Kickstarter miniatures-heavy board games (I'm a serious hobby board gamer) where you need to pay a s***load of money to get miniatures for all the models. Otherwise, you have cardboard tokens for half the game - just to remind you that you didn't shell out $500+, sight unseen, for all the game expansions.

A:IQ is the epitome of this - it is a handful of metal ramps, a little magnet tower and a little spinning thing. Without the colourful artwork, flashing LEDs and the big LCD screen, it would look like total pinball minimalism. Having played it, it feels heavily dependent, for gameplay, on the code and not the physical mechanics on the table. I mean, obviously, skillful shooting is important, but the gameplay seems to be largely driven by the code. This is what I meant, disparagingly, like 'it feels like a video game'. I keep wondering if a sufficiently talented coder could now make a playable pinball machine with three flippers, a scoop, a single wire-form ramp and a couple of thin metal lane guides - and nothing else (you know: shoot the scoop to start mode. Shoot at 45 degrees twice into the ramp to fight Godzilla).

I appreciate that the Stern team are battling to survive with low sales in a niche market, but playing it on the same day as ST:TNG (and with a WH20 in the same room), I ended up feeling that they were trying to rip off owners by supplying only a couple of metal ramps with some custom artwork. I've haven't been under the hood, but I was concerned that it didn't bode well for the build quality there either, especially as - in comparison with something like Genie - the machines already look kinda flimsy. Having watched the Australian pinball expert dude's videos, it kinda confirmed my bias that there obviously was a lot of corner cutting going on, although I understand that - by comparison - the B/W machines that are still running are obviously the better-built ones.

So, it's not I dislike the newer machines. It's just that, having encountered them for the first time at exactly the same time as a huge range of older machines, they don't stand out. Thus, I don't understand all the hype over new machines and, from the perspective of someone buying a machine, I wouldn't - personally - pay the astronomical NIB price.

Something about AFM, it (along with a number of WPC95 games) was actually a cost conscious machine from Bally/Williams, not a lot on the playfield and only 2 flippers. We all moaned about Iron Man (the original stern cost cutter) when it came out but it really is a fun machine. What's "missing" from a machine isn't as important as what's in it - the rules, the art, the shots and the code.

As for the connected system, I think it's a great idea, it will (hopefully) give ma the option to play against someone who has the same machine as me. I enjoy playing casually and competing against people, so if I could play a game or two against any of my pinball friends at any time, that would be perfect. I envisioned the system working on the basis that it would standardise settings and rules and have an optional webcam so you could see and chat to whoever you're playing (with a portion of the screen given to a stream of each other)

 

[VeeMonroe]

There’s a big difference between the 90s games and new games in terms of longevity in a home environment.

AFM, whitewater etc are great games (I own both) but in terms of rules and depth of game they come up lacking in a home environment compared to many of the new games.

If you stick a kid in a room full of pins AFM and WCS always come out well as there are obvious aims (shoot the saucer, castle, goal). Compare that with GOT or GoG and before you’ve even plunged you have to make key decisions.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with 90s games but they were designed for people to walk up to play and enjoy rather than ponder over strategies.

There 100% room for both types in a collection

People keep saying this…

We have been playing Fish Tales solidly and consistently since beginning of July. It is being played 10+ times *a day* in our house. We’re both working from home and it is our ‘office machine’. It gets played once in a morning, two or three times at lunchtime (by two separate people), another five times after work by me, then several more times in the evening after I’ve gone to bed, and it often gets played by my four-year-old son between those times.

That excludes the 50+ times I played Fish Tales on the Williams app *before* we bought it.

There is no deep and detailed strategic play here. We are doing two things a) competing with each other to get high scores on the ‘Champion’ and Top Angler’ table, b) trying to score a super jackpot.

I mean, yeah, after six months or a year, we might get bored of trying to kick each others’ ass (but we’ve been married for 17 years now…), I doubt we’re going to consistently score super jackpots - given that we’ve watched high-level PAPA tournament play and *they* can’t consistently get super jackpots on Fish Tales.

I play a tonne of hobby board games and there’s the same thing going on there. Loads of ultra-complex, rules-heavy games that are seen as ‘better’ than the stuff winning German family board game of the year because of the ‘strategic depth’. Games are about the people playing ‘em.

I agree though - there is room for both types in a collection

 

[johnwhitfield]

It’ll be interesting to see how you feel about LOTR as I see you’re getting one. Very different to FT as it’s aims/rules based. I’ve had mine for over 12 years and still haven’t got anywhere close to Valinor.

 

[VeeMonroe]

It’ll be interesting to see how you feel about LOTR as I see you’re getting one. Very different to FT as it’s aims/rules based. I’ve had mine for over 12 years and still haven’t got anywhere close to Valinor.

I bought it specifically because it was radically different from FT (due to being mode-based) and specifically because I have every intention of trying to get to Valinor...

[Also, because I keep bricking ramp shots ever since we re-levelled FT to adjust the right orbit, and I'm now nowhere near beating the latest Champion Angler - which is seriously p****g me off].

 

[cmrl9]

I bought it specifically because it was radically different from FT (due to being mode-based) and specifically because I have every intention of trying to get to Valinor...

[Also, because I keep bricking ramp shots ever since we re-levelled FT to adjust the right orbit, and I'm now nowhere near beating the latest Champion Angler - which is seriously p****g me off].

I nearly got to Valinor the other week, collected everything, but lost on the second destroy the ring pass, for full disclosure I'm playing it with 10 balls and have the UK skill posts on as well as the cave troll and the irritating ring multiple ball on that's switched off normally as the ball can be difficult to dislodge.

The interesting thing I've noticed is that it does remember previous passes, for example the fellowship mode is a bit tricky, if one the first go you rescue two, the next play you only need to rescue 5 , unsure if it's a setting in the machine that turns this remembering on or off, however realising the machine does this does make it a little easier. Although it's not particularly easy , my only other tip is to try and play the movie multiple modes with two balls, let one go down.

 

[VeeMonroe]

my only other tip is to try and play the movie multiple modes with two balls, let one go down.

Do you mean the Gollum multi-ball, re: two balls?

Also, out of curiosity, how do you find LOTR compared with STTNG? We've played STTNG at Flip Out in London and I love it, but my husband feels it does similar things to LOTR but probably less well. Just wondered what you thought, having owned both?

 

[cmrl9]

Do you mean the Gollum multi-ball, re: two balls?

Also, out of curiosity, how do you find LOTR compared with STTNG? We've played STTNG at Flip Out in London and I love it, but my husband feels it does similar things to LOTR but probably less well. Just wondered what you thought, having owned both?

Hi,

No the three movie multi-balls, The fellowship of the ring, two towers and return of the king, each have three balls unless you have gollum multiball in play in which case it will be 4!
To complete them it's easier to let one go down the drain and focus on two balls, there less likely to collide and bounce of something they shouldn't. The return of the king takes a long time of ball play to compelte as you have to hit various ramp shots in order and repeated 7 times.

It depends what your asking, playing or owning: If you own a STTNG expect to be under the playfield alot unless its been restored, its a complex game with alot to go wrong. You can get an idea of what is involved here (what I had to do to mine to get it to work properly):

https://www.pinballinfo.com/communi...ild-and-other-things.47854/page-7#post-396683

So far the LOTR has been rock solid, I've played it alot and never had to lift the playfiled up! (yet), so for home use a better machine. (although the new owner of STTNG hasn't had any problems with it, expect for some fault I didn't know was even present, soemthing to do with return to duty allowing more than it should, which required soldering on the Board)

In terms of playability in my opinion:

LOTR is a long game, which some people don't like, its not particually a drainer of balls
LOTR theme and gameplay seems to appeal more to non pinball players, my farther in-law spent a couple of hours on it where STTNG maybe 10 minutes. My 5 year old also likes it.

LOTR is fairly simple in its rule set, which I suppose could get boring to some. It possible to complete most modes at least once, there not particulay tricky. Yes its tricky to unlock them all as its repatitave and time consuming. Most of the LOTR modes require hitting either the sword ramp or the left wire ramp.

STTNG has alot of mission modes, 10 I think from memory, each with a specific rule set, many of them diffuclt to complete correctly due to timing of the ramp shots, This makes it a more challaging game

STTNG has toys, the cannons are great and a lot of different multiballs

The theme is realy well implemented, one of the better ones, the gameplay makes sense in relation to the TV series

STTNG is a slower more technical game, you have to be pretty good a ramp shots and shots in a particular order, whilst LOTR has eliments of this, I find it a speeder game (in flow, rather than play time on it)

 

[VeeMonroe]

No the three movie multi-balls, The fellowship of the ring, two towers and return of the king, each have three balls unless you have gollum multiball in play in which case it will be 4!
To complete them it's easier to let one go down the drain and focus on two balls, there less likely to collide and bounce of something they shouldn't. The return of the king takes a long time of ball play to compelte as you have to hit various ramp shots in order and repeated 7 times.

Ah, yes. We'd discovered that starting a mode and then a multi-ball gave us better scores

It depends what your asking, playing or owning: If you own a STTNG expect to be under the playfield alot unless its been restored, its a complex game with alot to go wrong. You can get an idea of what is involved here (what I had to do to mine to get it to work properly):

https://www.pinballinfo.com/communi...ild-and-other-things.47854/page-7#post-396683

Yes. To own.

I'm really enjoying working on my Fish Tales, but I've still got a backlog of repair tasks, so it's not clear I need another 'project' https://www.pinballinfo.com/communi...ild-and-other-things.47854/page-7#post-396683

LOTR is a long game, which some people don't like, its not particually a drainer of balls
LOTR theme and gameplay seems to appeal more to non pinball players, my farther in-law spent a couple of hours on it where STTNG maybe 10 minutes. My 5 year old also likes it.

LOTR is fairly simple in its rule set, which I suppose could get boring to some. It possible to complete most modes at least once, there not particulay tricky. Yes its tricky to unlock them all as its repatitave and time consuming. Most of the LOTR modes require hitting either the sword ramp or the left wire ramp.

STTNG has alot of mission modes, 10 I think from memory, each with a specific rule set, many of them diffuclt to complete correctly due to timing of the ramp shots, This makes it a more challaging game

STTNG has toys, the cannons are great and a lot of different multiballs

The theme is realy well implemented, one of the better ones, the gameplay makes sense in relation to the TV series

STTNG is a slower more technical game, you have to be pretty good a ramp shots and shots in a particular order, whilst LOTR has eliments of this, I find it a speeder game (in flow, rather than play time on it)

Yes. This was my worry

I've only had LOTR for a few weeks and, although I'm currently choosing it in preference to Fish Tales, this is purely because it's new - I prefer Fish Tales.

My five-year-old son absolutely loves LOTR.

However, I currently find it repetitive - even after a few weeks. It feels like it's a game where you can slap the ball madly around the playfield, and you're bound to activate something, but if you want to play strategically to advance the plot, there's a lot of hacking through the same set of shots. It's a bizarre feeling, given that Fish Tales has only about three meaningful shots, but our FT is set up to be maximally mean and the games are quite short. With LOTR, I'm already playing the exact same way each time (shoot each fellowship shot in turn, light all the KEEP lights, rack up the path of the dead) and the games can be quite long - as you say

I'm unsure if it's teething problems, and will pass, or it's just the wrong game for my play style. I genuinely feel like it's the pinball equivalent of climbing Mount Doom and that's not necessarily a good thing.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

KEEFER IN WOOD CHOPPING SHOCKER!

All of Keefer's games are what we call wood choppers: Simpsons, WPT, LOTR, Hobbit, GNR etc etc. I can't be ****d with them.

 

[M4carp]

LOTR LE looked great in the corner of my room but it was just gathering dust and I just couldn’t muster up the energy to play it in the end, think you need to be a big fan of the films to keep this one long term. I only had mine for a while because my son talked me into getting one as he loves the films.
I prefer punishing pins with quicker games though.

 

[VeeMonroe]

LOTR LE looked great in the corner of my room but it was just gathering dust and I just couldn’t muster up the energy to play it in the end, think you need to be a big fan of the films to keep this one long term. I only had mine for a while because my son talked me into getting one as he loves the films.
I prefer punishing pins with quicker games though.

I like punishing pins with quicker games too.

I don’t think we’re going to get rid of LOTR in a hurry, however, as it’s convinced my four year old to listen to The Hobbit as a bedtime story. And it’s not clear he would forgive me if it was swapped out for anything other than MM (or Junkyard… but I hate Junkyard).

 

[M4carp]

I like punishing pins with quicker games too.

I don’t think we’re going to get rid of LOTR in a hurry, however, as it’s convinced my four year old to listen to The Hobbit as a bedtime story. And it’s not clear he would forgive me if it was swapped out for anything other than MM (or Junkyard… but I hate Junkyard).

My granddaughter and wife have never forgiven me for selling Junkyard And they still go on about it even after getting MMr

 

[cmrl9]

Ah, yes. We'd discovered that starting a mode and then a multi-ball gave us better scores



Yes. To own.

I'm really enjoying working on my Fish Tales, but I've still got a backlog of repair tasks, so it's not clear I need another 'project' https://www.pinballinfo.com/communi...ild-and-other-things.47854/page-7#post-396683



Yes. This was my worry

I've only had LOTR for a few weeks and, although I'm currently choosing it in preference to Fish Tales, this is purely because it's new - I prefer Fish Tales.

My five-year-old son absolutely loves LOTR.

However, I currently find it repetitive - even after a few weeks. It feels like it's a game where you can slap the ball madly around the playfield, and you're bound to activate something, but if you want to play strategically to advance the plot, there's a lot of hacking through the same set of shots. It's a bizarre feeling, given that Fish Tales has only about three meaningful shots, but our FT is set up to be maximally mean and the games are quite short. With LOTR, I'm already playing the exact same way each time (shoot each fellowship shot in turn, light all the KEEP lights, rack up the path of the dead) and the games can be quite long - as you say

I'm unsure if it's teething problems, and will pass, or it's just the wrong game for my play style. I genuinely feel like it's the pinball equivalent of climbing Mount Doom and that's not necessarily a good thing.

Fish Tales and STTNG are very different machines, I was recommend to get a fish tales as my first one as I believe there pretty easy to maintain, I chose probably the most complex on to own *lol* I never liked fish tales, hated the theme.

Yep it is "lol" I love LOTR theme and have fond memory playing it in the arcade, my guess is once I've moded it and played it for a it, it will probably change. For home use I actually quite enjoy a long game, i could think of nothing worse than having a constant ball drainer at home, their fun in an arcade but I won't to be able to play it for a bit! A lot of the sterns around that time are similar in the repetitiveness, Elvis springs to mind. Have you enabled the cave troll and ring hold (it the final mission where you have to destroy the ring) in the settings, my machine wasn't set I think the previous owner didnt know it was there, it makes the final goal a bit more interesting.

A fair few people on here don't like it and advised me it was pretty boring, they kinda have a point, but I'm still enjoying it a the moment.

It will be fine as long as its from a trusted forum member and its been refurbished in its life time, expect to pay minimum £3.5K for a good one, probably more now. Unless your happy to take it apart! Look at the tray underneath if its black avoid! Look at the opto if there yellow rather than white, avoid! Look at the boards, any hacks avoid

As they say one person pinball pleasure is another ones pain!

 

[cmrl9]

KEEFER IN WOOD CHOPPING SHOCKER!

All of Keefer's games are what we call wood choppers: Simpsons, WPT, LOTR, Hobbit, GNR etc etc. I can't be ****d with them.

*lol* all the games I want! as long as its a stern Simpsons and not the awful Data east one. I actually fancy an Elvis, but I believe there difficult to get at a sensible price. (I'm not an Elvis collector)

 

[cmrl9]

LOTR LE looked great in the corner of my room but it was just gathering dust and I just couldn’t muster up the energy to play it in the end, think you need to be a big fan of the films to keep this one long term. I only had mine for a while because my son talked me into getting one as he loves the films.
I prefer punishing pins with quicker games though.

I believe Avatar is one punishing game! Someone kept trying to sell me there's when I was looking at the start.

I really wanted a LE but was out of my price bracket.

 

[cmrl9]

I like punishing pins with quicker games too.

I don’t think we’re going to get rid of LOTR in a hurry, however, as it’s convinced my four year old to listen to The Hobbit as a bedtime story. And it’s not clear he would forgive me if it was swapped out for anything other than MM (or Junkyard… but I hate Junkyard).

Hmm I wouldn't Call STTNG punishing, but it is challenging if you try and complete the missions properly. I really enjoyed playing it, I didn't enjoy fixing it! (well I did and didnt) if I had a workshop rather than a great big coffin in the living room taunting me for 4 months I would have enjoyed the fixing more, the wife wanted the dinning table back *lol*

LOTR is a fun family game, I was thinking of maybe getting Aliens, however there no way I could have that running with a 5 year old, I was watching the video clips that it plays *lol*, it reminded me of the Sorporanos I nearly bought as my first machine, until my wife point out it has an orgasim multi-ball and I would be explaining to the kids what that was!

 

[cmrl9]

My granddaughter and wife have never forgiven me for selling Junkyard And they still go on about it even after getting MMr

Now that's a machine I would like to own MMR, do they still make them? ITs hard to tell from Chicago gaming website.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Fish Tales and STTNG are very different machines, I was recommend to get a fish tales as my first one as I believe there pretty easy to maintain, I chose probably the most complex on to own *lol* I never liked fish tales, hated the theme.

I got Fish Tales for a similar reason. I’d played it on the Williams pinball app and it was my favourite, cheap-ish machine and I’d read it was easy to maintain and didn’t get boring easily due to the difficulty of some of the shots. I must admit to loving FT: our FT is slightly beat up and my dream is to get it fully refurbed one day, including redecaling and a new playfield.

Yep it is "lol" I love LOTR theme and have fond memory playing it in the arcade, my guess is once I've moded it and played it for a it, it will probably change. For home use I actually quite enjoy a long game, i could think of nothing worse than having a constant ball drainer at home, their fun in an arcade but I won't to be able to play it for a bit! A lot of the sterns around that time are similar in the repetitiveness, Elvis springs to mind. Have you enabled the cave troll and ring hold (it the final mission where you have to destroy the ring) in the settings, my machine wasn't set I think the previous owner didnt know it was there, it makes the final goal a bit more interesting.

It seems to have the cave troll…

Ball drain-wise, I thought I wanted something with longer ball times, but my current experience is that I prefer shorter ones - I can only maintain concentration over shorter periods. But, then, I’m also someone whose favourite pinball machine is probably TNA. Hence, brutal gameplay and short ball times don’t bother me especially. I played TNA about 30 times on Sunday at Flip Out; just losing the ball and resetting over-and-over-and-over again.

A fair few people on here don't like it and advised me it was pretty boring, they kinda have a point, but I'm still enjoying it a the moment.

It will be fine as long as its from a trusted forum member and its been refurbished in its life time, expect to pay minimum £3.5K for a good one, probably more now. Unless your happy to take it apart! Look at the tray underneath if its black avoid! Look at the opto if there yellow rather than white, avoid! Look at the boards, any hacks avoid

I tend to like the ‘taking apart’ aspect, but I’m not confident, currently, with something as complex as STTNG… unfortunately.

I had volunteered at Flip Out in the hope of learning more about repairs/maintenance but, sadly, Robin, who is the pin-tech, has been unwell for several weeks now.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Now that's a machine I would like to own MMR, do they still make them? ITs hard to tell from Chicago gaming website.

They’re going to fit in a reprint in about 24 months, apparently, alongside the new machine (i.e. CCr).

I rang Pinball Heaven and asked.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Hmm I wouldn't Call STTNG punishing, but it is challenging if you try and complete the missions properly. I really enjoyed playing it, I didn't enjoy fixing it! (well I did and didnt) if I had a workshop rather than a great big coffin in the living room taunting me for 4 months I would have enjoyed the fixing more, the wife wanted the dinning table back *lol*

Yeah, that’s the problem. We don’t have a workshop space right now. We don’t even have somewhere that I could reasonably spray a cab before redecaling. Otherwise, I’d be gunning to have a bash with our FT.

I keep wanting to have a workshop space where I could, for example, take apart an old EM and put it back together over a period of several months. All the mechanical aspects to (old) pinball machines absolutely fascinate me.

LOTR is a fun family game, I was thinking of maybe getting Aliens, however there no way I could have that running with a 5 year old, I was watching the video clips that it plays *lol*, it reminded me of the Sorporanos I nearly bought as my first machine, until my wife point out it has an orgasim multi-ball and I would be explaining to the kids what that was!

Yes. I played my four year old about 30 minutes of LOTR gameplay (someone getting close to Valinor) to ensure that none of the graphics scared him. I was a little worried about Shelob and the Ringwraiths, but it appears the “big spider” is now one of his favourite parts of the game.

I actually played Stranger Things around the same time as we got LOTR and enjoyed it so much (as it’s similar to MM and AFM) that I briefly considered whether I should get that instead, but the video clip of the Demogorgon bursting out of the wall would (probably) give the little guy nightmares. I say (probably) because, knowing my older son, he would get really into ‘hitting the big monster’ in the same way that he enjoys fighting Martians and destroying castles.

 

[cmrl9]

I got Fish Tales for a similar reason. I’d played it on the Williams pinball app and it was my favourite, cheap-ish machine and I’d read it was easy to maintain and didn’t get boring easily due to the difficulty of some of the shots. I must admit to loving FT: our FT is slightly beat up and my dream is to get it fully refurbed one day, including redecaling and a new playfield.

It seems to have the cave troll…

Ball drain-wise, I thought I wanted something with longer ball times, but my current experience is that I prefer shorter ones - I can only maintain concentration over shorter periods. But, then, I’m also someone whose favourite pinball machine is probably TNA. Hence, brutal gameplay and short ball times don’t bother me especially. I played TNA about 30 times on Sunday at Flip Out; just losing the ball and resetting over-and-over-and-over again.



I tend to like the ‘taking apart’ aspect, but I’m not confident, currently, with something as complex as STTNG… unfortunately.

I had volunteered at Flip Out in the hope of learning more about repairs/maintenance but, sadly, Robin, who is the pin-tech, has been unwell for several weeks now.

Yes LOTR requires long periods of concentration to complete, never played any spooky pinball tables, I need to visit flip out, the stupid thing is I lived near it for most of my life but didn't know it was there *lol* I now live in Northern Ireland so not that easy to get to.

Well I had no clue and I wouldn't touch boards, however there plenty of people on here who will guide you, without this forum I would never have got STTNG working, if I was still in London it would have gone straight to a repairer, however In northern Ireland I don't know any one who does repairs so it forced me to learn, if I ever wanted to play it!

 

[cmrl9]

They’re going to fit in a reprint in about 24 months, apparently, alongside the new machine (i.e. CCr).

I rang Pinball Heaven and asked.

Hmm great, now that would be my next machine, NIB 24 months is about right, give me time to save.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Hmm great, now that would be my next machine, NIB 24 months is about right, give me time to save.

Call Pinball Heaven and you can put your name down on a waiting list. Phil (I think that’s the name of the owner) isn’t taking any money right now because he doesn’t have a firm date for the reprint or any confirmation it is definitely happening (although CGC would be leaving money on the table if they didn’t do another print run).