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Making sense of odd pinball ratings ...

A

Aladeran

Registered
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
117
Location
Worthing
I like to browse Pinside to read the data and statistics. At some point, I found something that I cannot make sense of since I started to play pinball.

You would think that a machine rated in the Top 100 would have a higher value, or that a high value one would be rated in the Top 100. You might also conclude that a pinball produced in low numbers, would have a higher value and rating.

This is not the case at all.

There are many exceptions that makes no sense to me. I would like to know the logic or reasoning behind those discrepancies

Here is my best example.

Back to the Future is rated at #307, which is near the end of the Top 100. If you look at that number, you would be forgiven to think that it's a B grade boring machine.

It would make sense that the BttF pinball gets a lower value, after such an abysmal user ratings. Somehow, those disgruntled users felt guilty and offered to buy the machine for a whopping $5380. There is no right or wrong anymore.

Against common sense, low ratings and extortionate price, we found that there is 387 user who would like to own it, against 185 users who already own it.

Is there an expert who could bring some light and feedback to my conundrum?
 
Low production is usually due to the fact game was unsuccessful OR bad timing ie when pinball was in decline. If its the latter then the game can be valuable . Good examples are Solar Fire Defender and Big Bang Bar

A poor game to play with a great wide appeal theme will punch above it weight. For many years I could sell Bally Harley Davidson and DE Simpsons for more than Twilight Zone.

Back to the Future punches above it weight more than any other game based on the theme.
 
When selling some games, you night have two sets of buyers
You have pinball folk who know the game, and will compare it to other games they like
You then have a second group, the fans of the movie, and they only want one game in their house, and it must be that particular machine

Look at Bally machines from the late 70, beautiful to look at, impossible to find, sell for a lot of money, but are dogs to play (Playboy, Evil Knievel, and others)
 
You can pretty much ignore the rankings.
The only test is how much YOU enjoy a machine.
A lot of the high ranked games are ranked by people who own them. As such they will give 10/10 in order to make owners a) feel better about them b) help them sell them on.
Even The Munsters would initially have been given a high score 😂
 
steve brum said:
Low production is usually due to the fact game was unsuccessful OR bad timing ie when pinball was in decline. If its the latter then the game can be valuable . Good examples are Solar Fire Defender and Big Bang Bar

A poor game to play with a great wide appeal theme will punch above it weight. For many years I could sell Bally Harley Davidson and DE Simpsons for more than Twilight Zone.

Back to the Future punches above it weight more than any other game based on the theme.
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Yes, there are a lot of collectors who aren’t bothered about gameplay, for example.

Also, people enjoy pinball In different ways. There are people who loves toys on pins and will spend $$$$ on stacked pins. There are other people for whom gameplay is a bigger deal, even if the pin has fewer toys.

Rarity is also a big thing.
 
Ignore ratings.
I always do/did.
In the mid-2000s I was telling everyone they should own a No Fear and Flintstones. Most just fobbed them off. But in the last few years Flintstones has become very popular.
At the moment I have a Bally Game Show. Considered to be a shyte machine if you asked most people (I may add - who have not played it) - but I enjoy it.
I tend to also enjoy the 90s made games.
Even Popeye now will fetch good money. It is a well known theme and I am sure HLD would sell it for £6K to someone who is buying their first game.
 
Machine rankings are as good as useless on Pinside (and other sites) people rank the machines they own highly often in the hope it inflates the price. The latest machine almost always soar to the top of the rankings regardless, I suspect with people not actually having put in enough time playing various example of a machine to make an objective assessment. As an example without picking on anybody in particular, I've played 4 versions of TMNT, one of them plats absolutely shockingly, the other 3 play great. Had I only played the shocking one my opinion of the game would be vastly reduced, and rating would reflect that, perhaps unfairly.

People also rarely update their ranking of a machine, what you might have considered the greatest game ever is often then surpassed by a later release. I thought IMdn was the greatest game ever, but JP2 then GZ have surpassed IMdn, IMHO.

Play a game, if you enjoy it great, if not also great, don't take other people's opinions as gospel, there may be ulterior motives, or what they're looking for in a game may differ from what you're looking for. Personally I couldn't give 2 hoots for MM or AFM, I think they're too shallow and easily completed, the same goes for almost every game of a similar vintage. I prefer modern Stern games, then the older classics over most DMD games.
 
Pick Holder said:
Ignore ratings.
I always do/did.
In the mid-2000s I was telling everyone they should own a No Fear and Flintstones. Most just fobbed them off. But in the last few years Flintstones has become very popular.
At the moment I have a Bally Game Show. Considered to be a shyte machine if you asked most people (I may add - who have not played it) - but I enjoy it.
I tend to also enjoy the 90s made games.
Even Popeye now will fetch good money. It is a well known theme and I am sure HLD would sell it for £6K to someone who is buying their first game.
Click to expand...

If HLD were selling Popeye for £6k I'd tell them they'd undervalued a valuable asset and I'd pay them £10k and take them out to dinner.
 
Wayne J said:
Machine rankings are as good as useless on Pinside
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I am an approved rater on there i.e. my ratings don't have to be approved. I generally don't bother any more as it seems a totallyhoneymoon excercise. New games normally go straight to the top sometimes before they can have been played!
 
Thanks, that was helpful :)

What can I use then, to get a reasonably accurate price assessment?

I have been offered pinballs at various prices by members. While I appreciated their gesture, the pinballs were often priced above what I expected. Even within the community, you will find a wide range of opinion about the value of this or that machine. This makes it hard sometime to trust the advice I receive from others, as I don't know who is "impartial" within the community.

I am on a budget, so I am always looking for bargains. If I cannot find a reliable source for price guidance, then there is no independent frame of reference, to judge if a price is fair or not. This leaves me vulnerable of being taken advantage of, since I only have limited experience to judge prices by myself.
 
Gonzo said:
If HLD were selling Popeye for £6k I'd tell them they'd undervalued a valuable asset and I'd pay them £10k and take them out to dinner.
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Popeye is a good example, as I always kept an eye for one. It looked like an affordable machine when I looked at Pinside. Now it seems that it's no longer the case. How do I know what is its true "fair" value?
 
Opinions are like toothbrushes, most people have one and they don't want yours.
This is going to be a bit controversial but I'd say DON'T ask here! Firstly you need to try games. Possibly wait for the show or if you are anytime near a club try first and find a game that works for you.
You want a price take a look on marketplace on pinside and convert dollars to pounds at a 1 to 1 rate.
Best way to not pay over the odds is to buy new from pinball Heaven. I understand that's probably a non starter.
 
i could put a machine up for sale on here tonight for £5k - one person will bite my hand off, 6 will be annoyed they didn’t get it. 20 will think it was a bit pricey and 10 will make me a lower than asking offer and 1 will make a low ball offer. All those opinions on prices are valid.

the point is, just make your own references and opinions based on what you can glean about the market , if you end up buying a pin and you feel it was a fair deal, you’re doing ok, if you can’t buy owt, you are pitching too low, if you are inundated with machines to buy, you are pitching too high.

simples.

there is no hard and fast rule. the more you research the more reference points you get, but they are only valid for a short period of time. historical prices don’t mean much.

don’t be afraid of overpaying. it’s not the end of the world. if it was the suicide rate amongst pinheads would be close to 100%
 
AlanJ said:
there is a thread where you can ask for a valuation - provide pics and a description in the “how much is this worth” thread
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I used this a couple of time. You can find a wide range of price suggestions. I assume that people have their own filters to suggest a price, probably based on their own experiences and preferences.

I am looking forward for the forum database on price historicals :)
 
Aladeran said:
I used this a couple of time. You can find a wide range of price suggestions. I assume that people have their own filters to suggest a price, probably based on their own experiences and preferences.

I am looking forward for the forum database on price historicals :)
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i scrapped my idea of a historical price database. one reason: historical prices mean very little.
 
The more I look into pricing, the more I get confused. The pinball hobby is not black and white, it's only shades of grey. I would get better results looking at a liver or at the bottom of my cup of tea for guidance.
 
Something that you might think is overpriced today may end up being £500 more in 6 months, just look at nearly new prices over the last year to see that. Just decide on a handful of machines you want and what you’re happy to pay for each and seek those out.

If I sell a machine for what I paid for it or more even, then great but I don’t buy it thinking that. If i sell a machine for less than what I bought it for then I’d just look at the monetary loss as hobby money.

Pinball can be weird in that some people expect all the money they’ve spent back. Obviously that’s nice if it happens but if you play a round of golf a week you don’t get that money back at some point.
 
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Honestly I reckon you're over thinking it. You'll spend so much time thinking about buying a pin that you'll miss out and end up never getting one. There are no bargains anymore unless you're buying wrecks and have the skills and time to restore them....and even then you'll struggle to get a bargain. You've said you have a budget so the important thing is to buy a game at a price you are comfortable with rather than worry about if I, the pinside ratings or anyone on this forum thinks it's a good game or a good price.

You're trying to buy into a market where demand outstrips supply and there are lots of other people who will take the risk and pull the trigger based on minimal info so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by not doing that. I'm not saying that's right or wrong but it is the current reality and most sellers will take the path of least resistance when picking a buyer.
 
@Aladeran you are overthinking this.

Practically every hobby or entertainment costs money. Be it gym, knitting, drinking beer, 10 pin bowling, hiking, trainspotting, board gaming etc. But you pay that because you enjoy it.

Pinball is one of the few hobbies that over the past 10 years has effectively been free for some due to the increase in value. But its all on paper unless they are willing to sell up which most are not.

You can go to an arcade once a week and pay per game and costs of travel and spend say £500 a year on your pinball entertainment. So if you overpay by £500 but get that in entertainment value out of it what have you really lost. Nothing. And you will have had the convenience of having a machine in your own home, being able to invite your mates over for a social game and a few beers etc. Or you might even find that you enjoy the repair side as much as playing and that's a whole new side to the hobby.

And i doubt you will overpay as you are very cautious. In other posts you have described deals you have passed on that many on here would have snapped up.

But if you can't get over your fear of overpaying I expect you may never buy. But that's not so bad if you enjoy playing in the arcades, leagues or clubs. And there are some that don't want the hassle if maintaining a machine. Or enjoy the social or competition side more than owning a machine.

So go play some games in the arcades and clubs and shows, decide what YOU like and would want to buy, decide what YOU would be happy to pay up to (accepting that it needs to be realistic and may not be a bargain price) and look out or post for the games on your list.

AlanJ post above regarding one biting hand off etc. is how it works for any fairly priced machine. You need to be the one doing the biting when the machine on your list comes up at a price you are willing to pay. It's just the way it is at the moment.

Good luck on finding what you want and keep enjoying pinball in whatever form it comes to you. And remember it should just be a hobby, not an investment. Hopefully this will give you the encouragement not to worry so much.

Paul
 
ronsplooter said:
Honestly I reckon you're over thinking it. You'll spend so much time thinking about buying a pin that you'll miss out and end up never getting one. There are no bargains anymore unless you're buying wrecks and have the skills and time to restore them....and even then you'll struggle to get a bargain. You've said you have a budget so the important thing is to buy a game at a price you are comfortable with rather than worry about if I, the pinside ratings or anyone on this forum thinks it's a good game or a good price.

You're trying to buy into a market where demand outstrips supply and there are lots of other people who will take the risk and pull the trigger based on minimal info so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by not doing that. I'm not saying that's right or wrong but it is the current reality and most sellers will take the path of least resistance when picking a buyer.
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I have to agree with you. According to most, I was extremely lucky to get my first one at that price. Still, there is a part of me who want to replicate this purchase.

I have also let some amazing offers pass in front of me because of my inexperience.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of noticeable opportunities at the moment. I will be patient and wait :)
 
Asiapinball said:
@Aladeran you are overthinking this.

Practically every hobby or entertainment costs money. Be it gym, knitting, drinking beer, 10 pin bowling, hiking, trainspotting, board gaming etc. But you pay that because you enjoy it.

Pinball is one of the few hobbies that over the past 10 years has effectively been free for some due to the increase in value. But its all on paper unless they are willing to sell up which most are not.

You can go to an arcade once a week and pay per game and costs of travel and spend say £500 a year on your pinball entertainment. So if you overpay by £500 but get that in entertainment value out of it what have you really lost. Nothing. And you will have had the convenience of having a machine in your own home, being able to invite your mates over for a social game and a few beers etc. Or you might even find that you enjoy the repair side as much as playing and that's a whole new side to the hobby.

And i doubt you will overpay as you are very cautious. In other posts you have described deals you have passed on that many on here would have snapped up.

But if you can't get over your fear of overpaying I expect you may never buy. But that's not so bad if you enjoy playing in the arcades, leagues or clubs. And there are some that don't want the hassle if maintaining a machine. Or enjoy the social or competition side more than owning a machine.

So go play some games in the arcades and clubs and shows, decide what YOU like and would want to buy, decide what YOU would be happy to pay up to (accepting that it needs to be realistic and may not be a bargain price) and look out or post for the games on your list.

AlanJ post above regarding one biting hand off etc. is how it works for any fairly priced machine. You need to be the one doing the biting when the machine on your list comes up at a price you are willing to pay. It's just the way it is at the moment.

Good luck on finding what you want and keep enjoying pinball in whatever form it comes to you. And remember it should just be a hobby, not an investment. Hopefully this will give you the encouragement not to worry so much.

Paul
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This is good advice. 👆

@Aladeran , take the plunge mate although 3k for a Popeye might be a bit much even in this climate.

I see from your wanted thread that you've chosen 3 wide bodies and I've owned each of them.

Don't rule out a standard sized pin because there are so many fantastic pinball machines.

If you truly have settled on your chosen 3 then I'd suggest Judge Dredd. Star Trek tng is going to be expensive and unless you get lane extenders you may find it frustrating as a beginner.

JD has a lot of shots and will keep you busy for less money. Demolition is not on your list but should also be a consideration imo.

Good luck.
 
I think you'll struggle to find a players condition RS for 3k now. Mine was close to that in 2020.

It's a sleeper pin that's gained more appreciation along with the recent pinflation
 
David_Vi said:
It's a sleeper pin that's gained more appreciation along with the recent pinflation
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It's gained more vocal appreciation recently due to newer buyers discovering it, and being vocal about it. It's a machine pushing 30 years - there's been no code update recently, just more chatter, thus pushing price up above what would be expected with a machine that age.

Various titles go in cycles that way. FWIW I think it's very linear and limited.
 
RS? I like the music. Pat threw the kitchen sink at it and it shows. I prefer it to TZ but then I prefer RCT to TZ. Horses for courses!
 
It’s seems you want a definitive price list and that simply doesn’t exist.
I’m new to pinball (a year or so) but I have an idea of pricing and am fairly confident now of value TO ME.

An example would’ve the FT on eBay the other day. Sold for £2600.
I thought the condition was pretty rough from the photos and description and to me my instinct said “not for me” and the same with the TAF on eBay also.

However some people obviously didn’t feel the same and bought them, good for them I say ……
And that’s it in a nutshell.
Read as much as you can on here look on eBay , fb etc and you’ll build an instinct of your own. That’s what I’ve done.

Have I paid too much for mine, I don’t know and don’t care.
I just know I go home after work and either tinker/ fix bit on them or play them and that my friend is worth every penny!!
 
There is no magical price guide. You can only go with your gut instinct.
Several times as a seller I’ve listed games (SST and wh20 spring to mind) at what I thought were reasonable prices and got absolutely no bites. Then six months later I’ve relisted them at higher prices and been inundated with offers.

Also (crossing threads) there is a reasonable amount of questions to ask. If you are getting sellers blocking you then you’ve pretty clearly crossed that line. I’d far rather sell to someone at a lower price than someone who is coming across like they are going to be a real pain to deal with. (For me the same goes for anyone who agrees a price and then tries to renegotiate when they turn up because they can pay in cash etc. I don’t try to hike prices when people have travelled so would expect others to play by the same rules)
 
Wayne J said:
It's gained more vocal appreciation recently due to newer buyers discovering it, and being vocal about it. It's a machine pushing 30 years - there's been no code update recently, just more chatter, thus pushing price up above what would be expected with a machine that age.

Various titles go in cycles that way. FWIW I think it's very linear and limited.
Click to expand...

But look at it compared to other wpc titles of the same era that are mode based. A lot of those pins are valued a lot more than RS. For example TAF and TZ.

You get a lot of pin on RS, more modes than any wpc I can think of, 5 multiballs. Wizard mode. Ability to randomise the modes. Great ramp combos with diverters.

Plus it's fun, had a huge amount of character and might be the most quotable pin.
I know you're more into the comp side and not as keen on the classics, like AFM, MM but they're fun and that's what people like.

So RS jumping from around 2.5k 2 years ago to 3k+ isn't that hard to understand.
 
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