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Deleted member 2463
as per usual Paul you put words in my mouth - its not the first time is it?! I should know better! Try reading my post.
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London and South East League - Dates??? (and also SW league)
- Thread starter C&C
- Start date
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Deleted member 2463
IFPA collects points based upon the location of tournaments in that region, that then translates into a league table for the region, and it doesn't matter what region you are in if you played in that region and qualify for the finals you can choose which finals you want to take part in. The state finals are played and the winner gets to play in the national tournament. I'm not proposing the US model applies to us as they are significantly bigger. The finals for each region are all played on the same day and the same format (apart from number of people depending on state size). This weekend you'll see dozens of streams of pinball as all the regions run their finals.
Neil, I totally respect what you did with the UK Open this year - it was really amazing and a huge contribution to the UK's pinball community.
However, some of us are (still) pretty rubbish, but would like to offer an organised opportunity for others to play our pins, which would otherwise be locked away in a private collection.
It may be the case that the best way of doing that is through isolated social events, as @David_Vi and @Lecari do at the PinHaus, but it's also enjoyable to have competitive play at different venues (or the same venue) with the same group of people - which is kinda the definition of a league...
Maybe it needs multiple leagues of different prestige and ability, as happens in football...
I’d be more than happy with the “tea bag” league.
I’ve got about as much interest in my world ranking as I do in someone else’s stamp collection.
If being ultra competitive is your thing then that’s fine. For me I’d rather enjoy myself than stress about a bad game.
I’ve got about as much interest in my world ranking as I do in someone else’s stamp collection.
If being ultra competitive is your thing then that’s fine. For me I’d rather enjoy myself than stress about a bad game.
That is USAs version of the UKCS - in no way comparable to the UK League. As already previously mentioned the UKCS is up for a revamp which will indeed turn it in to a larger competition, with significant prize money and rewards, but I digress.
The UK League is not, nor to my knowledge ever has been, intended to be a WPPR points farming competition - there are plenty of other competitions out there for that. Seen by the change in formats to cater to the IFPA every time there is a change.
The UK League is intended to be a friendly welcoming competition open to anybody. Whether that be neighbours of hosts, friends of competitors, people who come for the social aspect, or the more competitive players.
By hosting the finals at the largest pinball show in the UK, it gives the opportunity for the best players from all over the UK and Ireland to compete against each other in a single competition making the journey worthwhile.
It is unfortunate that the IFPA does not recognise the validity of a league format being a test of pinballing skill due to the fact that there is no head to head play - but that is their decision. If you want WPPR pts, you need to bow to their rules. Which myself and the other 6 co-ordinators do not feel is what the UK League is about.
It is like saying that the winner of any Major golf tournament is not the best player because they did not necessarily play alongside their closest competitors in matchplay, but use stroke play as the metric for deciding the winner, or that the League format used in virtually every country across the world to determine which football team is the best over a season is not valid either. American sports just don't have the same formats, and it seems that they can't accept formats used in other countries in other sports to pinball.
As always - everybody is entitled to their opinion - if you don't like the format and style of the UK League nobody is ever forcing anybody to attend.
I prefer Ringtons to other teabag formats.
The UK scene seems to be more about community than competition. I think most would be happy with a tea drinking league as it's a chance to see friends, meet new people and play pinball.
Just look at Swavesey last year, no wpprs but huge attendance considering it's size.
The US scene is huge by comparison. much larger population and bigger locations. I suppose to compare you could look at just one state and it's events over the year, I would guess that it's not too dissimilar to our event calendar.
Our strength is our close-knit community, the comps and wpprs are only an addition to that I think.
@VeeMonroe nothing stopping you from having a casual meet at your place. Just to play and chat pinball, no wpprs or serious formats.
@MajesticPinball used to do similar and it's how we became best buddies and I ended up in this mess of many pins
(James only had 4 or 5 pins set up in a small flat).
Just look at Swavesey last year, no wpprs but huge attendance considering it's size.
The US scene is huge by comparison. much larger population and bigger locations. I suppose to compare you could look at just one state and it's events over the year, I would guess that it's not too dissimilar to our event calendar.
Our strength is our close-knit community, the comps and wpprs are only an addition to that I think.
@VeeMonroe nothing stopping you from having a casual meet at your place. Just to play and chat pinball, no wpprs or serious formats.
@MajesticPinball used to do similar and it's how we became best buddies and I ended up in this mess of many pins
(James only had 4 or 5 pins set up in a small flat).
We usually use all the machines at the hosts house in the Midlands. Very little queuing because people are playing one of the other machines rather than waiting to play 1 of the 5 they have to play. There will be 11 this Sunday, and we'll still all be done in just over 2 hours.
Like Wayne has mentioned, we're lucky to have a venue like Electric circus with a large enough selection that we could have 2 meets there and not use the same machines twice.
I imagine the South East could do the same at pinball Republic or medway.
I think the league is more of a social event and an introduction to competitive pinball. Loads of people (myself included) have gone to a league meet and then got hooked into competitive pinball, but that doesn't mean that the league has to be super competitive, for most it is just about meeting up with other like minded people for an afternoon of fun.
There's no reason why anybody can't host an IFPA certified competition at whatever venue they want.
The MINIMUM criteria is only 2 competitors!
Anybody who wants help in setting up a comp, or suggestions for formats based on number of machines, number of competitors, maxing out pts, etc just pm me.
I've done it numerous times, both before and after I was made IFPA UK director
The MINIMUM criteria is only 2 competitors!
Anybody who wants help in setting up a comp, or suggestions for formats based on number of machines, number of competitors, maxing out pts, etc just pm me.
I've done it numerous times, both before and after I was made IFPA UK director
Can confirm
yourself and @Wizcat were vital in us getting enough confidence to host our first events!
Personally, I just love that these conversations are taking place. It's great to know we have some kind of demand for a competitive scene in the UK. I always love seeing how many UK folks are in the chat on twitch streams in the US, clearly loving competitive pinball.
I think there is room for all of it. The League does what it does fantastically well, it's a brilliant introduction to friendly/organised/slightly competive pinball. I think it would be a shame for it to disappear just because the IFPA don't give it points, it's really not all about the points. Personally I haven't been able to play in the league for a number of years due to family commitments and having to selectively choose the time I can be away from home and for me it's the big competitive events that take a precedent. But if time/once the boys are old enough and can come, I would love to go to everything again. I went to one league meet last season, which Moose and the Northeners kindly allowed me to come to (they know how to run a league meet up there!) And it was absolutely brilliant.
I still believe that the UKCS is a great idea, it was born because I had many of the same frustrations that Neil has stated. Myself, Greg and Martin tried to create something bigger for the UK. It's never reached the scale I dreamed of and I'm really excited and pleased that Wayne is revamping it and hopefully it will be really well supported by the whole UK community.
We are a community, people love different parts of the hobby, I think it's great we all have the chance to enjoy it all, let's not belittle or dismiss any part of it, it's such a niche thing as it is, lets just enjoy it for the amazing hobby that it is.
I think there is room for all of it. The League does what it does fantastically well, it's a brilliant introduction to friendly/organised/slightly competive pinball. I think it would be a shame for it to disappear just because the IFPA don't give it points, it's really not all about the points. Personally I haven't been able to play in the league for a number of years due to family commitments and having to selectively choose the time I can be away from home and for me it's the big competitive events that take a precedent. But if time/once the boys are old enough and can come, I would love to go to everything again. I went to one league meet last season, which Moose and the Northeners kindly allowed me to come to (they know how to run a league meet up there!) And it was absolutely brilliant.
I still believe that the UKCS is a great idea, it was born because I had many of the same frustrations that Neil has stated. Myself, Greg and Martin tried to create something bigger for the UK. It's never reached the scale I dreamed of and I'm really excited and pleased that Wayne is revamping it and hopefully it will be really well supported by the whole UK community.
We are a community, people love different parts of the hobby, I think it's great we all have the chance to enjoy it all, let's not belittle or dismiss any part of it, it's such a niche thing as it is, lets just enjoy it for the amazing hobby that it is.
Changing an 80s and later machine to 4 ball play with no extras is a one minute task for any experienced pinball owner/ league organiser. It can more be problematic on 70s and earlier machines but ball times on these older machines are so short it does not matter if they are 5 ball.
Game duration is also easy to control. Position of outlane posts and tilt sensitivity make a huge difference. An experienced player or league host can make these adjustments after playing a couple of games. Just get them round for a second opinion before you host to avoid something like an easy Spiderman with epic ball times holding everything up.
If you want to keep things moving the machines must be in use as much of the time as possible. 4 player games will cause delays v 2 player ones, especially if you have weak (short ball time) and strong (long ball time) folk playing together in 4s
I set all my games up for 4 ball league play years ago. I only change them for things like NERG where the punters probably expect extra ball opportunities and the 3 ball play that pubs tended to offer in the good old days.
The league has a totally different flavour to UKCS events and this accessibility/ fraternity should be preserved. Running the two concepts in parallel makes total sense.
Game duration is also easy to control. Position of outlane posts and tilt sensitivity make a huge difference. An experienced player or league host can make these adjustments after playing a couple of games. Just get them round for a second opinion before you host to avoid something like an easy Spiderman with epic ball times holding everything up.
If you want to keep things moving the machines must be in use as much of the time as possible. 4 player games will cause delays v 2 player ones, especially if you have weak (short ball time) and strong (long ball time) folk playing together in 4s
I set all my games up for 4 ball league play years ago. I only change them for things like NERG where the punters probably expect extra ball opportunities and the 3 ball play that pubs tended to offer in the good old days.
The league has a totally different flavour to UKCS events and this accessibility/ fraternity should be preserved. Running the two concepts in parallel makes total sense.
I just want to say that nobody has suggested that the league is going anywhere (well maybe it's not to one persons liking
)Long live the League
I have emailed Dawn to offer Medway as a league venue so if any of the regulars want to give it a miss this year, we can take the slot.
Despite being a bit out of the way for Londoners, we have a huge catchment area in the SE of England - Our launch and first tournament (Pizza & Pinball) were very well attended so I'm open to anyone who wants to start up a local league or run their own one-off events with help from Tony and myself.
mike.
Despite being a bit out of the way for Londoners, we have a huge catchment area in the SE of England - Our launch and first tournament (Pizza & Pinball) were very well attended so I'm open to anyone who wants to start up a local league or run their own one-off events with help from Tony and myself.
mike.
Well, @Jackpot and I, with what we thought were fairly simple questions about when dates would be published for the L/SE and SW Leagues, and the possibility of playing more than 5 games in the L/SE league seem to have sparked what I have to say has so far been a lively and interesting debate, through which I, at least, have learned quite a lot! 
I think it's very clear that many people really enjoy the league with its friendly competitive nature, and that for a good percentage of the people attending, IFPR points are unimportant. I'd also venture to suggest that for those who do take an interest in their IFPA points/rating, a good percentage are still very interested in playing in the league, despite points not being available - it is, after all, another chance to play competitively, and meet up with both new, and familiar people/friends.
It also is a very good, and low-pressure introduction to competitive pinball. That was certainly what I found when starting to play again around 3 years ago.
I think that apart from the above, and to summarise the answers to the original questions:
1. Publication of dates: For the London/SE, and SW leagues
This question remains unanswered - when will they be published please?
(and for the L/SE, I can confirm, I still haven't had a response to my email to Dawn - I'll update the thread as soon as I do)
2. Number of games at a league meet
The overwhelming views from people who actually run and attend other leagues with large numbers of people is that there is absolutely no reason at all to limit the number of games at a league meet to 5 games. Much larger numbers of games (14+) for larger numbers of people (40+) do not significantly add to the time taken for the event - all it means is that the attendees spend less time waiting around, and more time playing pinball, which surely has to be a good thing, right? By the way, talking to a couple of people yesterday, even a mitigating argument that the time spent waiting to play a game is good for socialising, isn't really the case, as you actually end up standing around queueing for your next game, rather than sitting down having a chat with friends!
I'd hope that on the back of this, this year's London/SE league meets will offer significantly more than 5 games when they are held at venues that have more than 5 pins available.
I'd also hope that if this isn't the case, the attendees at these events will ask the organisers for good reasons why we are all expected to play only 5 games and spend significant time standing around queueing, when surrounded by significantly more than 5 pinball machines.
I think it's very clear that many people really enjoy the league with its friendly competitive nature, and that for a good percentage of the people attending, IFPR points are unimportant. I'd also venture to suggest that for those who do take an interest in their IFPA points/rating, a good percentage are still very interested in playing in the league, despite points not being available - it is, after all, another chance to play competitively, and meet up with both new, and familiar people/friends.
It also is a very good, and low-pressure introduction to competitive pinball. That was certainly what I found when starting to play again around 3 years ago.
I think that apart from the above, and to summarise the answers to the original questions:
1. Publication of dates: For the London/SE, and SW leagues
This question remains unanswered - when will they be published please?
(and for the L/SE, I can confirm, I still haven't had a response to my email to Dawn - I'll update the thread as soon as I do)
2. Number of games at a league meet
The overwhelming views from people who actually run and attend other leagues with large numbers of people is that there is absolutely no reason at all to limit the number of games at a league meet to 5 games. Much larger numbers of games (14+) for larger numbers of people (40+) do not significantly add to the time taken for the event - all it means is that the attendees spend less time waiting around, and more time playing pinball, which surely has to be a good thing, right? By the way, talking to a couple of people yesterday, even a mitigating argument that the time spent waiting to play a game is good for socialising, isn't really the case, as you actually end up standing around queueing for your next game, rather than sitting down having a chat with friends!
I'd hope that on the back of this, this year's London/SE league meets will offer significantly more than 5 games when they are held at venues that have more than 5 pins available.
I'd also hope that if this isn't the case, the attendees at these events will ask the organisers for good reasons why we are all expected to play only 5 games and spend significant time standing around queueing, when surrounded by significantly more than 5 pinball machines.
You're not out of the way if technically our place in Suffolk counts as London and SE
Wow, can't believe 99.9999999999999999999999% of the community aren't elitist!
I'll keep my Ringtons. You can stick to your PG Tips.
I'll keep my Ringtons. You can stick to your PG Tips.
One of the coolest things I saw at today's Midlands league meeting was a 5 year old winning a 4 player game on Centaur beating both his Dad and Aunty in the process! That right there is what the UK Pinball League is all about for me and you wouldn't get that in a more competitive environment 
A kid stood on a step. 100%. @ronsplooter
You should come around to our house. Happens all the time…One of the coolest things I saw at today's Midlands league meeting was a 5 year old winning a 4 player game on Centaur beating both his Dad and Aunty in the process! That right there is what the UK Pinball League is all about for me and you wouldn't get that in a more competitive environment
We haven’t been beaten by the two year old yet, but it’s just a matter of time (and I have considered bringing him to a competition because there’s going to be at least one classic game where a grown-up gets three insta-drains with no ball save)
Update on dates.
I've just had an email from Dawn regarding the London/SE dates.
The full list of dates should be sent out this weekend.
The first league meet will be on Sunday 26th February.
(Which I'll be unable to attend unfortunately, due to a kayaking weekend on the river Dart, which was arranged only a couple of weeks ago).
I've just had an email from Dawn regarding the London/SE dates.
The full list of dates should be sent out this weekend.
The first league meet will be on Sunday 26th February.
(Which I'll be unable to attend unfortunately, due to a kayaking weekend on the river Dart, which was arranged only a couple of weeks ago).
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So far every one of the proposed dates clashes with a gig in the evening. 
. Guess I’m going to have to decide which hobby I value more.
. Guess I’m going to have to decide which hobby I value more.
So far every one of the proposed dates clashes with a gig in the evening.
Are there other dates out yet? Even something indicative would be useful but I've only seen 26th Feb and can't make that as I'm in the same boat (pun intended) as Conrad having just booked time away
the official dates should be out very soon. Provisionally I snaffled the July date when Dawn sent the dates round to hosts earlier this week. I think 5 of the 6 were confirmed by then.
I expect Dawn emailed the group at the weekend with the dates? They're also listed on the site now : https://www.pinballleague.uk/schedule.php
Not sure if you're on that email list @Lecari - but the dates are there if you wanted to update your list too
Not sure if you're on that email list @Lecari - but the dates are there if you wanted to update your list too
| Sun 26th Feb 2023 | Rochester | Medway Pinball | ||
| Sun 26th Mar 2023 | Croydon | Pinball Republic | ||
| Sun 16th Apr 2023 | Keston, Kent | Martin | ||
| Sun 21st May 2023 | Frieth, Henley-on-Thames | Paul | ||
| Sun 18th Jun 2023 | Greenwich | Vivienne | ||
| Sun 23rd Jul 2023 | New Cross | John & Anna |
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Deleted member 2463
One of the coolest things I saw at today's Midlands league meeting was a 5 year old winning a 4 player game on Centaur beating both his Dad and Aunty in the process! That right there is what the UK Pinball League is all about for me and you wouldn't get that in a more competitive environment
Chris I absolutely love you man but sorry that's just not the case.
Young Liam Bradley - aged 11, who beat his Dad and Brother to qualify in one of the tournaments at INDISC - yes an 11 year old in the finals of the most competitive and hard tournament in the world.
Lecari
Site Supporter
Fair play, that kid must have some serious skills but I'd argue he's more the exception than the rule. My point was mainly that we get a lot of the more casual players at league meets (I can only speak for the Midlands obviously) and that in a more competitive environment they may be less inclined to turn up which to me would be a shame (and people may be less willing to bring their young kids).
I can see the other side (which I guess is where you're coming from) in that how does the UK produce the next generation of higher skilled players if they don't get exposed to competition but for me there are other tournaments for that (UKCS for example) and the league is a more chilled time
Fair play, that kid must have some serious skills but I'd argue he's more the exception than the rule. My point was mainly that we get a lot of the more casual players at league meets (I can only speak for the Midlands obviously) and that in a more competitive environment they may be less inclined to turn up which to me would be a shame (and people may be less willing to bring their young kids).
I can see the other side (which I guess is where you're coming from) in that how does the UK produce the next generation of higher skilled players if they don't get exposed to competition but for me there are other tournaments for that (UKCS for example) and the league is a more chilled time
Like any hobby it has to be fun, I used to really enjoy the SE and LPL/Pipeline meets back when I lived in London - have a few beers play some games prop up the middle of the results table - accessible to all, no pressure, happy days if you have a good game, no worries if you don't.
Like all things there will be better players and they'll rise to the top and take it further and fair enough and good luck to them - but those players will never emerge if the initial experience is super completive and serious and they get put of progressing right out the gate
The last competitive event I played in was a few years back at one of the larger shows and there were some more serious players including a couple (who I don't think were UK based players TBH) who were openly dismissive of people not understanding the format/rules.
I didn't bother entering any competitive stuff at the larger shows after that to be honest, couldn't be bothered with that sort of attitude and I got more fun out of just being at the show and playing random 2 player games with people walking around the public machines.
I'm no loss to the competitive Pinball world though
TBH I've not been to a league meet since moving in 2016, mainly because I've never gotten myself organised into the SW league/when the dates arrive I've either missed them or got other things booked in already, but if they're still chilled events like they used to be I'd be up for getting back into it again, but like I say it's 90% social 10% competition for me.