Is the London/SE League meet on this Sunday (20th Jan)?

[Wayne J]

Having only just read this, so the first time I have been aware of any of the 'issues' I'd like to make a few comments before speaking to Dawn and discussing with the other co-ordinators.

It is highly unusual (the first time?) I have ever heard of games being played outside of the usual scheduled date and will certainly be discouraging it in all but the most extreme circumstances. That is one of the reasons why there are 6 meets with only your best 4 counting, to allow for non-attendance.

I would also encourage as many games as available to be played, but this is down to the host - in discussion with the co-ordinator. The more games played allows for less queuing between games, less disruption if a game breaks down mid-session, and removes the impact of a single poor, or good, game on the days overall results. In my experience, over the last 7 years, the time taken to play all of the games doesn't vary as significantly dependant on the number of games played, rather the number of people attending, and whether they play alone or in groups.

The set-up of machines should also be left to the host (outside of 4balls and no extras). It is a big enough undertaking for hosts to prepare for a meet, without having to worry about having to bastardize games to reduce ball time, and then set back up after the meet; especially if the venue is public.

I'd encourage anybody who has issues during the day to speak to either/both the co-ordinator and host to try and sort it out there and then, rather than waiting to post on a forum such as this, when it is usually too late to change anything that has happened.

The vast majority of hosts have hosted before and are used to the various issues that can be encountered, and I feel that the more experienced players should be assisting and encouraging new hosts to ensure that they enjoy the experience and host again. Likewise the majority of co-ordinators have been doing this a number of years and make the right decisions the majority of the time.

It's great to see so many people attending and enjoying competitive pinball and long may it continue.

 

[Wayne J]

An issue that can be resolved by every individual, rather than host or co-ordinator, is replying to invites and letting the host know that you are coming. It allows them to make proper arrangements for food and drink as well as potentially moving furniture/games/pets around to accommodate larger numbers.

I know this is an issue I too have experienced in the Midlands, with the last meet only having 4 people officially confirming their attendance.

I know that plans change at short notice, but it would take only a minute to drop an email, or message on here, FB, etc etc to inform the host or co-ordinator.

Please try and be considerate and acknowledge the effort and planning that every single one of the hosts puts in to ensuring that the UK League can take place at all.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Wayne,
Thanks for the clarification of the timing issue. I did flag the issue to the host after I played my game and the game was definitely level at the start of the event otherwise I’d have flagged it then. I’ve got a picture of my score from practise that I’d be happy to use instead of my league game!

When you say run more games how can that be done given it’s 5 games only ? Are you saying run more games and take best 5?

On the other points you have your view and your entitled to it but I for one find your response very disappointing and I can’t believe there is such a lack of ambition! Maybe I’m mis-understanding you and I hope I am.

If people keep messing about then make it mandatory to pre-reg - in this day and age there is no reason folks can’t pre-reg.

In my view trying to aim for some level of consistency has to be an objective of the UK league surely? Evolving the series so each year is better than the last? Is this not the official IFPA sanctioned national event? Maybe I’m over thinking this but a surely we want to run a competition that’s got the prestige and recognition of the official UK event or maybe this isn’t the official UK event?

Cheers,
Neil.




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[DAD]

My comments as co-ordinator for the Northern region:

I agree that more games can actually decrease the time to run the meet.
In the Northern league we typically have 10 - 15 games per meet (with up to 33 players at a meet) and are usually finished well before our planned deadline (6pm)
I do however look to see if there are very long playing games eg LOTR, Hobbit, and may exclude those from the league games, especially if there are others available
It obviously depends on the nature of the games - at my meet there are many older games and the first people finish 15 games within a couple of hours, whereas meets with more modern games will take longer.
I do ask hosts to try and ensure their games are not too shallow so some of our better players don't take forever!

I don't think players should be allowed to play on a different day.
I have local players who I know would be unhappy to learn that that had been permitted, when they have missed, and will miss, meets due to personal commitments and not had the same opportunity to "catch up"
As has been said elsewhere, having 6 meets a year with only the best 4 counting allows for a meet to be missed.

With regard to notifying attendance, I agree strongly with this.
I've banged on about this to Northern League players for a long time now, and am pleased to say that I now get a pretty good response, although it could still be better.
With hosts spending a significant amount of time and effort on catering, it is only courteous to help them get the numbers about right.

With regards to the comments on scoring, I actually find this works very well when there is a reasonable number of games.
The top positions tend be taken by those who have performed averagely or better on all their games ie the consistent players; they beat the inconsistent players who can come top on some machines but do badly on a couple or more
The bonus point for doubling the next score is a bit of a waste of time re position, I don't think it has ever actually made a difference, but is nevertheless nice as it highlights an exceptional performance and gives the player a warm glow (or at least it does me on the rare occasion it happens!)

 

[DanLewell]

I sort of assumed that people always responed to say they were going? I always do (I think?).

It only takes seconds to reply to the email to say we'll be there - or to say we can't make it as happened for the last meet, although if were allowed to play on another day I might still be able to make it!

 

[johnwhitfield]

People not confirming attendance seems to be the norm which makes catering a real pain. Attendance can vary massively from meet to meet and year to year.

Space is a problem with 40+ people. On Sunday there were people accidentally backing into GOTG when others were playing.

Not sure how this realistically can be solved. I know some people have fantastically large games rooms but I’m pretty stuffed if it rains and people can’t go outside.

Even with more games in the mix I suspect we would still have bottlenecks on the longer playing games. I’m thinking of games like champion pub that can grind on for ages.

Also for myself more games would cause logistical issues. It’s easy enough to stick 3-5 games down one of of the room but anymore and it would end up with people bumping into others when they are playing.

 

[Wayne J]

The aim of the league was always to introduce new people of all skill levels and experience to competitive pinball in a relaxed and welcoming environment. That is certainly what I am trying to achieve, and understood when I took over from @robotgreg
.As for IFPA officially sanctioned event for the UK - it never has been, and likely never will be. That would be The UK Open, ran by @Moonraker , in whatever format he sees fit.

 

[Wayne J]

The rules have always been at LEAST 4 games, no maximum. I assume that was because when the league first started there wasn't the number of hosts with huge collections. I don't think raising the minimum number of games would be the right thing to do, as it would exclude a number of hosts and end up with the same hosts each season,and people playing the same collections .

 

[Moonraker]

The aim of the league was always to introduce new people of all skill levels and experience to competitive pinball in a relaxed and welcoming environment. That is certainly what I am trying to achieve, and understood when I took over from @robotgreg
.As for IFPA officially sanctioned event for the UK - it never has been, and likely never will be. That would be The UK Open, ran by @Moonraker , in whatever format he sees fit.

The UK league is a IFPA sanctioned league. Last years results can be seen here:
https://www.ifpapinball.com/tournaments/view.php?t=24678

 

[Wayne J]

The UK league is a IFPA sanctioned event. Last years results can be seen here:
https://www.ifpapinball.com/tournaments/view.php?t=24678

I think Neil was implying it should be THE UK event, not that it's not WPPR eligible.

 

[Moonraker]

I think Neil was implying it should be THE UK event, not that it's not WPPR eligible.

Ah yes, I see. Had to re-read Neil's post.

It sounds like in Neil's eyes the UK open doesn't have the prestige and that the league should take on the mantle..?

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Peter,

In short no! The UK open is a two day event that has about 50 people on average, this year with it not being at UKPinfest (which I think is a shame and add to that a non player vs player format at UKpinfest and it feels a bit lacking that we really have a big UK event).

I have doubts uk open will be a true representation of the players in the UK. So whilst it’s a good event, in my view it’s a one of event no different to robotbash. D2R, xmas cracker etc.

The UK league has hundreds of players from across the country so I assumed it’s the main event. But at the same time it obviously isn’t because each region does their region differently and the guy who runs it thinks it’s more like a game of footy down the park with jackets as goalposts! I get that now and I’ll put that level of effort into it.

But Wayne, the event on Sunday was not what you’d want to introduce pinball to new players so in my view I think you need to think again on that. The popularity of competitive pinball is on the up in a big way and I would urge you and those running the league to consider how you cope with that.

I look to the US and see the state championships that lead to the national championships and think, wouldn’t it be great if we had something like that. Recognising we don’t have the venues makes that tough but I believe not impossible.

Cheers
Neil.


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[Wayne J]

and the guy who runs it thinks it’s more like a game of footy down the park with jackets as goalposts!

Because people are always telling me I don't take it serious when I'm playing!
Maybe it should be more competitive, with people shouting and swearing when they lose a ball, or abusing machines because they take it too seriously, as has happened in the past in certain areas?

I look to the US and see the state championships that lead to the national championships and think, wouldn’t it be great if we had something like that. Recognising we don’t have the venues makes that tough but I believe not impossible.

We have the UKCS, which is almost a direct copy of the format of the SCS for qualification purposes, but it is not taken as seriously due to the fact that there isn't prize money of thousands of £s - unless you want to put up a substantial prize pot?

The comp which was ran at Manchester Expo a couple of years ago was the first step to a 'US-Style' comp with unlimited entries, and was pretty well received. The comp at this year's Pinfest has been built on that and should have the largest prize pot in UK pinball history while still being accessible to all who attend.

 

[robotgreg]

Neil, back in the dawns of time when competitive pinball was in its infancy in the UK, there were only 3 competitions - the UK Open, UK Cup and then the league final. Over time more and more came along, (probably around 30 different comps over a period of 12 years without fully counting!) some came and went, some stayed the test of time, but for me the most prestigious comps in the UK have always been the Open, league final and more recently the UKCS, and they all have different formats.

These 3 comps are the only ones where you can expect almost all of the top players in the country to compete, with the Open also the only one attracting any established foreign players and furthermore beuing the one UK comp that counts for the ECS (the European equivalent of the UKCS).

The UK Open was held at Pinfest last year and had 80 entrants. I assume it is part of Pinfest this year too?

 

[kevlar]

I think this thread needs a title change

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Because people are always telling me I don't take it serious when I'm playing!
Maybe it should be more competitive, with people shouting and swearing when they lose a ball, or abusing machines because they take it too seriously, as has happened in the past in certain areas?


We have the UKCS, which is almost a direct copy of the format of the SCS for qualification purposes, but it is not taken as seriously due to the fact that there isn't prize money of thousands of £s - unless you want to put up a substantial prize pot?

The comp which was ran at Manchester Expo a couple of years ago was the first step to a 'US-Style' comp with unlimited entries, and was pretty well received. The comp at this year's Pinfest has been built on that and should have the largest prize pot in UK pinball history while still being accessible to all who attend.

I don't think the pendulum needs such a swing, and anyone who shouts, swears or abuses machine should be given a yellow/red/ban card as appropriate.

In my view having some guidelines to make things more consistent and ensuring the event meets some type of basic standard doesn't feel like a huge ask.

UKCS same is true and a more specific schedule that folks can plan for.

Cheers,
Neil.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Neil, back in the dawns of time when competitive pinball was in its infancy in the UK, there were only 3 competitions - the UK Open, UK Cup and then the league final. Over time more and more came along, (probably around 30 different comps over a period of 12 years without fully counting!) some came and went, some stayed the test of time, but for me the most prestigious comps in the UK have always been the Open, league final and more recently the UKCS, and they all have different formats.

These 3 comps are the only ones where you can expect almost all of the top players in the country to compete, with the Open also the only one attracting any established foreign players and furthermore beuing the one UK comp that counts for the ECS (the European equivalent of the UKCS).

The UK Open was held at Pinfest last year and had 80 entrants. I assume it is part of Pinfest this year too?

Hi Greg,
No its not part of pinfest unfortunately, which I personally think is a huge mistake and the engagement of 80 entrants was because it was at UKPinfest. There where a bunch of challenges last year all of which I think could be resolved but folks have decided to part company.

At UKPinfest Wayne is running the competition and the UK Open will happen elsewhere, which I expect will reduce the UK engagement at the UK Open. But the league finals are at UKPinfest.

Those competitions historically have had various folks goto them. The only time I recently that the UK Open had a representative player line up was at UKPinfest. Previous Peter ran it at Salisbury and the turnout wasn't so great and certainly was more the south open than the UK open! I know before that it was at pinball party and other places.

Compromise doesn't seem to be our best strength sometimes!

Neil.

 

[Epotech]

back in the dawns of time when competitive pinball was in its infancy in the UK, there were only 3 competitions

Nope, that would be the Firepower league and (possibly) the comp at the Pinball Owners Association convention (Steve and David Dutton) would know.

The UKPinball league was started by Eddie Mole to promote and improve competitive play in the UK. The first comp at the show was 2006 which was the team comp and the league started in 2007 (from memory).

 

[robotgreg]

Nope, that would be the Firepower league and (possibly) the comp at the Pinball Owners Association convention (Steve and David Dutton) would know.

The UKPinball league was started by Eddie Mole to promote and improve competitive play in the UK. The first comp at the show was 2006 which was the team comp and the league started in 2007 (from memory).

Phil, I realise there were comps pre 2007 but I was trying to illustrate the point to Neil that IMHO, the UK Open, league finals and UKCS are by far the most prestigious comps to win in the UK.

The ones you mention were one -offs and I was referring to when a proper competitive scene started in the UK with recurring comps albeit only a few each year at the start. Furthermore these ones from 2007 on earned WPPRS whereas only one UK comp did before this ( I know your views on the IPFA!!)

 

[johnwhitfield]

Eddie mole is a name I haven’t heard for a while. I remember an article on him in the metro around 2010

 

[Matt Vince]

Phil, I realise there were comps pre 2007 but I was trying to illustrate the point to Neil that IMHO, the UK Open, league finals and UKCS are by far the most prestigious comps to win in the UK.

The ones you mention were one -offs and I was referring to when a proper competitive scene started in the UK with recurring comps albeit only a few each year at the start. Furthermore these ones from 2007 on earned WPPRS whereas only one UK comp did before this ( I know your views on the IPFA!!)

I agree with the Open and UK Pinball League Finals, but disagree with the UKCS. If the UKCS were a big competition maybe, but in it's current format no. I don't think a one strike format is the best way to sort the 20 best players from the previous year. Even if the top few get a bye for qualifying highly (maybe 8 from 24 players) and then have multi-game matchplay to progress, just my 2 pennies.

 

[DAD]

Peter,

In short no! The UK open is a two day event that has about 50 people on average, this year with it not being at UKPinfest (which I think is a shame and add to that a non player vs player format at UKpinfest and it feels a bit lacking that we really have a big UK event).

I have doubts uk open will be a true representation of the players in the UK. So whilst it’s a good event, in my view it’s a one of event no different to robotbash. D2R, xmas cracker etc.

The UK league has hundreds of players from across the country so I assumed it’s the main event. But at the same time it obviously isn’t because each region does their region differently and the guy who runs it thinks it’s more like a game of footy down the park with jackets as goalposts! I get that now and I’ll put that level of effort into it.

But Wayne, the event on Sunday was not what you’d want to introduce pinball to new players so in my view I think you need to think again on that. The popularity of competitive pinball is on the up in a big way and I would urge you and those running the league to consider how you cope with that.

I look to the US and see the state championships that lead to the national championships and think, wouldn’t it be great if we had something like that. Recognising we don’t have the venues makes that tough but I believe not impossible.

Cheers
Neil.


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[Paul R Owen]

I agree with the Open and UK Pinball League Finals, but disagree with the UKCS. If the UKCS were a big competition maybe, but in it's current format no. I don't think a one strike format is the best way to sort the 20 best players from the previous year. Even if the top few get a bye for qualifying highly (maybe 8 from 24 players) and then have multi-game matchplay to progress, just my 2 pennies.

I agree about the UKCS. The format is the main reason that I haven't entered this year. The early start would have meant getting up about 6am at the latest - for possibly one game of pinball!

 

[DAD]

Perhaps that's something you could take on organising, Neil?

I'm sure you would get plenty of helpful advice and support from those of us who have put on big competitions previously

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I agree about the UKCS. The format is the main reason that I haven't entered this year. The early start would have meant getting up about 6am at the latest - for possibly one game of pinball!

And the shine charity event Paul!


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[Deleted member 2463]

Perhaps that's something you could take on organising, Neil?

I'm sure you would get plenty of helpful advice and support from those of us who have put on big competitions previously

Take on organising what specifically?



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[DAD]

Nope, that would be the Firepower league and (possibly) the comp at the Pinball Owners Association convention (Steve and David Dutton) would know.

The UKPinball league was started by Eddie Mole to promote and improve competitive play in the UK. The first comp at the show was 2006 which was the team comp and the league started in 2007 (from memory).

Nope, that would be the Firepower league and (possibly) the comp at the Pinball Owners Association convention (Steve and David Dutton) would know.

The UKPinball league was started by Eddie Mole to promote and improve competitive play in the UK. The first comp at the show was 2006 which was the team comp and the league started in 2007 (from memory).

Nope, that would be the Firepower league and (possibly) the comp at the Pinball Owners Association convention (Steve and David Dutton) would know.

The UKPinball league was started by Eddie Mole to promote and improve competitive play in the UK. The first comp at the show was 2006 which was the team comp and the league started in 2007 (from memory).

The POA ran an annual championship in the 1980s. The 1986 one was imaginatively titled "the World Pinball Championship" which I won, and as a result got lots of publicity ?

But in reality these were small events and the competitive pinball scene these days is way more developed

 

[DAD]

Take on organising what specifically?



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"I look to the US and see the state championships that lead to the national championships and think, wouldn’t it be great if we had something like that. Recognising we don’t have the venues makes that tough but I believe not impossible. "

 

[Deleted member 2463]

"I look to the US and see the state championships that lead to the national championships and think, wouldn’t it be great if we had something like that. Recognising we don’t have the venues makes that tough but I believe not impossible. "

I don't want to compete with the league.

We ran funball 4 in L&SE last year which the feedback was very positive on with about 50 different players - and I ran D2R which again had a lot of positive feedback.

Neil.

 

[cyberkryten]

Been away a few days, but can I belatedly pile in on "Guardians wasn't level" as an excuse for my embarrassing score on it instead?

I liked the tilts being quite forgiving as it meant I stood some chance of rescuing the various poorly aimed shots I made throughout the day.

From a new players perspective, watching other people play is really, really useful (more so in person than on streaming/tutorials) - our weekend at Pinfest helped us both a huge amount.

Organising things is a fairly thankless task and rarely is everyone happy with an event, so I'd like to say again that being new to this (the only other competition we have ever entered was the UK Open at Pinfest), we both had great fun and will be trying to make as many of the other league events as we can.