paulg100
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lots of games ive not played but is there possibly a harder multiball than fishtales,, its absolutely brutal on a fast playing table.
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Games that make you a better player
- Thread starter Colywobbles
- Start date
7yrs in - still not got there, I'm so $hit it's shameful!
**** yeah! it's over so quick if you've not got your concentration pants on.
The games that without doubt improved my play more than anything else were BoP and F14.
BoP makes you aware that there's no point in shooting things just for the sake of it. Only shot worth shooting is the left ramp 99% of the time. So you need to be able to get the ball to the right flipper. Whether that be by post transferring from a left flipper trap, shooting the centre ramp from a rolling left flipper, live catch from the pop bumpers, dead bounce from the loops. Then actually making the shot. Only being a 2 ball multiball also focuses your mind on ball control.
The disappointment of the big wheel award only awarding 5mil instead of light the Billion is real.
You also need to focus on lane changing to get the extra ball (or even going for the 4 times extra ball Billion).
F14 is another where shot selection is important, relighting the kickback is essential, just glancing the target so it doesn't come screaming back sdtm. Shooting the loops to get to the upper flipper, or allowing it to come back down and working your bonus up.
What REALLY focuses your mind is having to pay to play and earn replays, rather than just pressing start again without consequence or cost.
Neither are the deepest games, nor that brutal in reality, but you don't need that - you don't learn how to nudge if the ball is constantly flying down the outlanes.
BoP makes you aware that there's no point in shooting things just for the sake of it. Only shot worth shooting is the left ramp 99% of the time. So you need to be able to get the ball to the right flipper. Whether that be by post transferring from a left flipper trap, shooting the centre ramp from a rolling left flipper, live catch from the pop bumpers, dead bounce from the loops. Then actually making the shot. Only being a 2 ball multiball also focuses your mind on ball control.
The disappointment of the big wheel award only awarding 5mil instead of light the Billion is real.
You also need to focus on lane changing to get the extra ball (or even going for the 4 times extra ball Billion).
F14 is another where shot selection is important, relighting the kickback is essential, just glancing the target so it doesn't come screaming back sdtm. Shooting the loops to get to the upper flipper, or allowing it to come back down and working your bonus up.
What REALLY focuses your mind is having to pay to play and earn replays, rather than just pressing start again without consequence or cost.
Neither are the deepest games, nor that brutal in reality, but you don't need that - you don't learn how to nudge if the ball is constantly flying down the outlanes.
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I find multiball harder on Creech because of similar reasons to Fish Tales. Maybe I've just played a lot of my Fish Tales and got used to the shots. I still go games without a single jackpot though. On Creech it's only a two ball, with bigger flipper gap and balls flying at you from the slide vuk, out of the inlane vuk (which you can easily miss) and down from the pops were a sling can kill the ball. Not to mention the jackpot requires potentially 5 shots to get, meanwhile you're trying to send the other ball to the whirlpool for the playfield multiplier.
If you want to be a better player you need to learn live catches and accuracy on Creech, as well as knowing what shots to pick, do I try trap up and methodically find the girl then rescue and jackpot or do I flip madly
On a totally different subject, I think Fish Tales has the most awesome shots. Nailing Casters club never gets boring, then sending a ball around to the saucer to hear JACKPOT!
I don't get this feeling in many other games. I suppose Creech has a similar feeling as jackpot can be so difficult to get so it feels like an event.
Are you *sure* you want a TNA*?After 2 hours of Walking Dead, I can safely say that I'm a worse player than yesterday and far more angry.
Quite frankly John Borg can shove his well walker drain where the sun don't shine
The appeal of TWD and TNA CE is (for me, anyway) all a bit Sith Lord, "feel the anger flowing through you, making you more focused... determined... until you are more powerful than you can ever imagine" i.e. I guess the "F**k you pop bumper/machine, I'll do better NEXT TIME" (presses start button again) is a large part of the appeal.
Or, put a different way, I'd never own a pinball machine where I didn't want to whole-bodily hurl it out of the window. No fun, otherwise*
[*First time I saw TNA, I played it for like an hour solid. That was probably ~60 games, and would have been more, but there's a ball save...
]
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Are you *sure* you want a TNA?
The appeal of TWD and TNA CE is (for me, anyway) all a bit Sith Lord, "feel the anger flowing through you, making you more focused... determined... until you are more powerful than you can ever imagine" i.e. I guess the "F**k you pop bumper/machine, I'll do better NEXT TIME" (presses start button again) is a large part of the appeal.
TNA is a tough game but still feels fun and not unfair. It has one more game appeal whereas I think TWD doesn't.
I like both. The only reason I'm not interested in owning TWD is because I hate the graphic design. I don't like zombies at the best of times, and TWD manages to make them look ickier than usual (probably themed well, then, but still...)
Ultimately, outline drains don't 'just happen'. If they did, Keith Elwin would have similar ball times to me. When I was playing four player in London & SE league, I kept draining and onlookers were like "oh, that's such an unfair outlane drain" and I was like "No, I just sucked" because, ultimately, if your aim is good, stuff doesn't bounce off the posts and disappear into the outlanes. And, if you have the reaction times and experience to anticipate the ball path, you can nudge the ball before it arrives in the outlane
There's also a tonne of strategy around how you safely make a shot (e.g. backhand versus forehand), whether you stack a multiball onto a mode before making harder shots, and so on. About the only pins that seem deeply unfair are some EMs, and - even then - it's obvious from watching my older son playing Gigi that player skill overrides the higher level of luck.
I don't want to say "play better" because not everyone wants to be in this hobby to play competitively, or can even improve (I don't seem to ever improve), but some pins are evidently designed for very good players (and lousy players with a big streak of masochism). And I say that as someone who spent 15 minutes shooting the drop targets on TWD over-and-over again at PBR last Thursday (and draining repeatedly) because I'd watched @Gonzo's video on why he hated it, and it had really sparked my interest!
TNA has great sound, code, art, and layout.
TWD just has really great code and the rest is horrid.
I sure know which one I'd want to own!
TWD just has really great code and the rest is horrid.
I sure know which one I'd want to own!
DanSeldon
Registered
I'm rubbish at them all and my WH20 continues to kick my **** but I do keep going back.
Whenever I'm at PBR (which isn't often enough), Fish Tales and TNA are games I keep going back to with TNA always being the first machine I play.
Whenever I'm at PBR (which isn't often enough), Fish Tales and TNA are games I keep going back to with TNA always being the first machine I play.
I like both. The only reason I'm not interested in owning TWD is because I hate the graphic design. I don't like zombies at the best of times, and TWD manages to make them look ickier than usual (probably themed well, then, but still...)
Ultimately, outline drains don't 'just happen'. If they did, Keith Elwin would have similar ball times to me. When I was playing four player in London & SE league, I kept draining and onlookers were like "oh, that's such an unfair outlane drain" and I was like "No, I just sucked" because, ultimately, if your aim is good, stuff doesn't bounce off the posts and disappear into the outlanes. And, if you have the reaction times and experience to anticipate the ball path, you can nudge the ball before it arrives in the outlane
There's also a tonne of strategy around how you safely make a shot (e.g. backhand versus forehand), whether you stack a multiball onto a mode before making harder shots, and so on. About the only pins that seem deeply unfair are some EMs, and - even then - it's obvious from watching my older son playing Gigi that player skill overrides the higher level of luck.
I don't want to say "play better" because not everyone wants to be in this hobby to play competitively, or can even improve (I don't seem to ever improve), but some pins are evidently designed for very good players (and lousy players with a big streak of masochism). And I say that as someone who spent 15 minutes shooting the drop targets on TWD over-and-over again at PBR last Thursday (and draining repeatedly) because I'd watched @Gonzo's video on why he hated it, and it had really sparked my interest!
To be totally fair Vee, that wasn't a video about why I hate Walking Dead..... that was just me struggling to play it and explaining why.
You'll know about it when I do a video about WHY I hate Walking Dead
.However I've committed to playing the game every day to see if I can achieve the much heralded Horde Mide.
I find Whitewater hard mate. Fortunately it also has a bit of charm and enough encouragement to make me want to play again.
Lowering the tone (and showing my age), I recall some highly skilled player/owner(s) defending Vector in the Poa magazine; 'It makes you raise your game". Maybe raise it off the floor and throw it outside, as Vee mentions.
TWD has awful art, but zombies are supposed to be vile-looking and bloodthirstyTNA has great sound, code, art, and layout.
TWD just has really great code and the rest is horrid.
I sure know which one I'd want to own!
I can never hear the music or sound effects in PBR.The layout is, now you mention it, pretty mediocre, but none of the shots have weird geometry (Stern TMNT, by contrast, has weird geometry and then, when you do key in the shots, it doesn't feel worth it code-wise somehow). It just feels like there are a lot of things dotted about in positions that cause drains, but which you have to hit. That's kinda challenging, rather than just annoying.
THIS is the point. If you make you're shots your less likely to drain. Numerous machines have shots which feed the flippers, meaning a good player will have long ball times on it. The real skill is getting control back of the ball when you miss a shot.
Again, exactly this. Why are you shooting for 'particular' shot? Is it because you need it for mb, jackpot, or just because it's flashing. If you MUST hit a dangerous shot, try and find a way to do it which gives you the best chance or keeping the ball. (In MB, ensure kickback is lit, or ball save at start of ball etc.)
And yet it always seems to be the best players who finish near the top of the results table every time. There is definitely more volatility in results involving classics (or machines which don't have ramps or loops which feed directly back to an inlane)
I think everybody wants to improve - it's knowing how to improve is the thing you need to unlock. If you constantly play the machine exactly the same way each time you'll get better on the machine in front of you - but then when faced with a different machine you're back to square one. Understanding why you lost control of the ball, and then not repeating it, is the key to improving.
ALL pins are designed to take money, either at initial point of NIB sale, or by you putting your coins in for that one more game.
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I for one love twd art/audio (Cleland) and code, iam still **** at it but it does pull me back in all the time because I know its my fault everytime a ball drains and could have been avoided if I wasn't asleep at the wheel. I guess it's akin to the souls series where the reward is greater when you do make the shots. Theme is spot on too for what the game is based on and I love darker themes anyway, some of these newer pins themes are akin to having a set of Pokemon curtains hanging in your bedroom.
I think our machines are set up hard, but - generally - I drain because either:
a) I brick a shot close to the flippers and the ball shoots off at an angle too fast for me to react;
b) The ball goes literally SDTM and I've got no clue how to move the machine to deflect the ball (despite me seeing the loss a country-mile off);
c) The ball gets stuck between the slingshots and zips around madly, with me desperately trying to catch it, until it drains (@Jackpot was kind enough to explain what I was doing wrong there
).I also play at league where I fluctuate between 1s and 10s in Pingolf (https://matchplay.events/handbook/pingolf), with some machines being a 10 consistently, week in week out, to the point where I dread playing them. And, to be honest, it's nothing to do with the layout - it's literally that I have no idea what to do. So, I kinda noodle around randomly, shooting at random shots in the desperate hope of setting something off. I have been playing for five minutes on some pins, and I still don't get above 10 strokes.
If anyone can recommend any pins to improve these skills, which we don’t already own, I’d really appreciate it
It's evident there are now some NIB pins designed for the casual home market, which have complex narrative-based gameplay and long ball times - so they play like a computer game. Also, there are older pins that are setup by their owners to have long ball times, such as having low-bounce rubbers that bring the ball to a dead halt with no skill required. Coupled with a traditional fan layout, including two lanes that feed the flippers, those are the games where - in tournament - I can practically have lunch and come back while a good player is finishing their game.
I owned an LE and subsequently a Pro - both frustrating as a casual and mediocre player (i.e. me), not kid friendly either.To be totally fair Vee, that wasn't a video about why I hate Walking Dead..... that was just me struggling to play it and explaining why.
You'll know about it when I do a video about WHY I hate Walking Dead
However I've committed to playing the game every day to see if I can achieve the much heralded Horde Mide.
HORDE on the Prem/LE is fantastic though.
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Totally agree re; Halloween - the orbit shots (especially the right) are very tight and even the centre ramp while wide can bite you if you don't hit it cleanly, as it'll roll back down.
The hedge shots are a bit tricky too, but worth mastering if you want to start Hedge MB regularly and to be able to get the jackpots (also to hurry up collects upon beating a mode)
As you say, multi-tasking is key too; hitting upper pf shots while in a MB is very satisfying and good for nice points.
After having Alien and now Halloween, I think I've improved as a player.
Agree with @Colywobbles (hi mate
) re; Walking Dead too - I used to have very short games at flipout/PR and get frustrated, even though I wanted to love the game. After a while once you get some accuracy going it's a great ride and one of the best games going - very rewarding.a) you know what the problem is and therefore know how to rectify it - shoot later or sooner based on where you missed the shot.a) I brick a shot close to the flippers and the ball shoots off at an angle too fast for me to react;
b) The ball goes literally SDTM and I've got no clue how to move the machine to deflect the ball (despite me seeing the loss a country-mile off);
c) The ball gets stuck between the slingshots and zips around madly, with me desperately trying to catch it, until it drains (@Jackpot was kind enough to explain what I was doing wrong there
I also play at league where I fluctuate between 1s and 10s in Pingolf (https://matchplay.events/handbook/pingolf), with some machines being a 10 consistently, week in week out, to the point where I dread playing them. And, to be honest, it's nothing to do with the layout - it's literally that I have no idea what to do. So, I kinda noodle around randomly, shooting at random shots in the desperate hope of setting something off. I have been playing for five minutes on some pins, and I still don't get above 10 strokes.
b) the ball rarely just goes SDTM without a missed shot prior. (I never make big moves on machines due to my wrists, elbows and shoulders being knackered).
c) again, the ball normally only ends up in the slingshots following a missed shot - there are definitely ways to lessen the likelihood of a side drain when it is there.
Specific machine knowledge - rather than dread playing a machine you don't know the rules on, especially if it is one you are going to come up against frequently, find out what you are meant to be shooting for. That could be from one extreme watching videos or tutorials, searching for the rules online, or as basic as asking someone who you have seen get a good score. The knowledge of the top players is unbelievable, and when they don't know they go on a site such as PinTips or refer to notes they've made themselves prior. I played in a final with Cayle George in Belgium. After the match I asked him why he went for a specific short plunge on Lost World rather than going for the cross bridge shot from the upper flipper and he took the time to go back to the machine and explain what was going on, how to get multiball and the safest points. He says that he always evaluates points per shot when working out a strategy. How many shots does he need to make to get the payoff, then are they safe. Escher in a recent article says that people should always be aiming towards something while playing - not just 'noodling around randomly'
The up shot is that there really isn't a single machine or technique that's guaranteed to make you a better player.
D
Deleted member 2463
TNA has great sound, code, art, and layout.
TWD just has really great code and the rest is horrid.
I sure know which one I'd want to own!
TWD has an epic layout. Barn is like one of the top 5 best shots in pinball. Tunnel an Arena designed to hit the ball spot on.
Remember that pinball designers are aiming for the world of "I can get that shot I missed if I just try gain" - from SWL "Pavlov"
Better than the Godzilla building? The Caster’s Club on Fish Tales? The boat ramp shots? The shot in Spirit that goes up diagonally to the top of the playfield? The Medieval Madness castle gate? The one-shot kill into the Demogorgon’s mouth on ST? The right spiral ramp on JP2? The ring shot on LoTR? The 360 loop and the very wide ramp on A:IQ? Everything in the lower playfield in Black Hole (which I need to play in real life)? The spinner shots in Quicksilver? PinBot’s eyes? The left ramp shot in BoP (I mean, hey, it has to sustain an ENTIRE GAME, so it must be good)?
The barn is literally a door in the centre of the playfield that opens to reveal a head (unless I’m missing something). Even the well walker is more satisfying than that. I mean, I’ll defend TWD to anyone, as it’s a great pin, but ‘best shots in pinball’ isn’t one of its claims to fame. Nothing ZIPs or WHOOOSHES or anything…
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D
Deleted member 5505
Isn't Barn the left orbit ?
Better than the Godzilla building? The Caster’s Club on Fish Tales? The boat ramp shots? The shot in Spirit that goes up diagonally to the top of the playfield? The Medieval Madness castle gate? The one-shot kill into the Demogorgon’s mouth on ST? The right spiral ramp on JP2? The ring shot on LoTR? The 360 loop and the very wide ramp on A:IQ? Everything in the lower playfield in Black Hole (which I need to play in real life)? The spinner shots in Quicksilver? PinBot’s eyes? The left ramp shot in BoP (I mean, hey, it has to sustain an ENTIRE GAME, so it must be good)?
The barn is literally a door in the centre of the playfield that opens to reveal a head (unless I’m missing something). Even the well walker is more satisfying than that. I mean, I’ll defend TWD to anyone, as it’s a great pin, but ‘best shots in pinball’ isn’t one of its claims to fame. Nothing ZIPs or WHOOOSHES or anything…
Barn is the left orbit as far as I remember? The building is the prison although I always thought it looked like a Barn.
My response to this would just be 'Any game that is set up hard that makes you work for your points.'
I borrowed @Wayne J GZ around a month ago and while I made some small adjustments to make life a bit easier, I found it quite a brutal and punishing game because I know Wayne likes his games hard.
I then went and saw @Chris P and only a few games in (semi inebriated) I smashed 2.2 billion on it which admitted isn't a terribly amazing score, but was good enough to get on the board. With Wayne's I only cracked 2 billion a couple of times.
YES there are some games that people quite as often just being all round hard (Iron Man etc) but I think if you set a game up difficult, it'll 'teach' you to be a better player so when you get to one that's set up differently, you'll perform much better.
I borrowed @Wayne J GZ around a month ago and while I made some small adjustments to make life a bit easier, I found it quite a brutal and punishing game because I know Wayne likes his games hard.
I then went and saw @Chris P and only a few games in (semi inebriated) I smashed 2.2 billion on it which admitted isn't a terribly amazing score, but was good enough to get on the board. With Wayne's I only cracked 2 billion a couple of times.
YES there are some games that people quite as often just being all round hard (Iron Man etc) but I think if you set a game up difficult, it'll 'teach' you to be a better player so when you get to one that's set up differently, you'll perform much better.
Apologies for the long post - I seem to have got a bit carried away!
TL DR - Spending time practising specific skills is an important factor in making you a better player - more important than a particular machine (IMHO).
I'm not going to suggest any specific game that "makes you a better player", as I believe literally any game can make you a better player - it just depends on how you use it. This is something I've actually been thinking about a fair bit recently - how to improve as a player.
One thing that struck me was if you think about pinball and compare it to how people improve playing other sports/games.
Take cricket as an example (or football, table tennis, hockey etc..).
The aim of the game in cricket, when you're batting is to not lose your wicket, hit the ball in a variety of directions from a variety of incoming speeds, angles, spins, and score runs. Sounds a bit like pinball - don't drain, hit various shots and score points.
Now, when trying to improve (at any level), do cricketers simply go out and play match after match, trying to get better through this experience, or do they also have an alternative approach? The answer is that they spend time training - both fitness, and more importantly doing net sessions, where they will stand in a net and have ball after ball repeatedly bowled at them (either by team mates, or an automated bowling machine) with the aim of working on specific shots - whether that's an off-side cover drive, on-side hook shot or whatever. As they improve their ability to automatically hit these shots, this (hopefully) improves their game when it comes to actually playing a match.
So, back to pinball - when playing at home, or at a club (but not in a competition), how do you spend the time? I'm guessing not dis-similar to how I've been playing - start the game, plunge the ball and try to get the best score I can. When the last ball drains, hit the start button, and repeat, or move to a different game and essentially do the same. This is similar to the cricket approach of just playing match after match, with little focus on improving specific skills/shots.
I'm sure we've all seen various tutorial videos where specific skills are explained. @Gonzo has some great short videos on his YouTube channel done by Craig Pullen (@roadshow16 ) explaining post-pass, live catches, bounce pass etc.. There's a more extensive series of skills videos on the PAPA channel.
Edited to add - some more advanced stuff from Abe Flips.
Although we've probably all seen these, or similar, the question I've found myself asking is:
How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.
I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.
So, for me, I'm now trying to ensure that I practise these skills for at least a part of each pinball session. The funny part is that although it might sound boring, it's actually quite rewarding when you eventually get it right, then try to repeat the same again.
Obviously, this is just one small part of improving as a player - practising accurate shots, learning and understanding the rules of each table etc.. are all needed, but I thought I'd just mention this skills aspect and wondered whether other people spend appreciable time doing this type of practise?
TL DR - Spending time practising specific skills is an important factor in making you a better player - more important than a particular machine (IMHO).
I'm not going to suggest any specific game that "makes you a better player", as I believe literally any game can make you a better player - it just depends on how you use it. This is something I've actually been thinking about a fair bit recently - how to improve as a player.
One thing that struck me was if you think about pinball and compare it to how people improve playing other sports/games.
Take cricket as an example (or football, table tennis, hockey etc..).
The aim of the game in cricket, when you're batting is to not lose your wicket, hit the ball in a variety of directions from a variety of incoming speeds, angles, spins, and score runs. Sounds a bit like pinball - don't drain, hit various shots and score points.
Now, when trying to improve (at any level), do cricketers simply go out and play match after match, trying to get better through this experience, or do they also have an alternative approach? The answer is that they spend time training - both fitness, and more importantly doing net sessions, where they will stand in a net and have ball after ball repeatedly bowled at them (either by team mates, or an automated bowling machine) with the aim of working on specific shots - whether that's an off-side cover drive, on-side hook shot or whatever. As they improve their ability to automatically hit these shots, this (hopefully) improves their game when it comes to actually playing a match.
So, back to pinball - when playing at home, or at a club (but not in a competition), how do you spend the time? I'm guessing not dis-similar to how I've been playing - start the game, plunge the ball and try to get the best score I can. When the last ball drains, hit the start button, and repeat, or move to a different game and essentially do the same. This is similar to the cricket approach of just playing match after match, with little focus on improving specific skills/shots.
I'm sure we've all seen various tutorial videos where specific skills are explained. @Gonzo has some great short videos on his YouTube channel done by Craig Pullen (@roadshow16 ) explaining post-pass, live catches, bounce pass etc.. There's a more extensive series of skills videos on the PAPA channel.
Edited to add - some more advanced stuff from Abe Flips.
Although we've probably all seen these, or similar, the question I've found myself asking is:
How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.
I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.
So, for me, I'm now trying to ensure that I practise these skills for at least a part of each pinball session. The funny part is that although it might sound boring, it's actually quite rewarding when you eventually get it right, then try to repeat the same again.
Obviously, this is just one small part of improving as a player - practising accurate shots, learning and understanding the rules of each table etc.. are all needed, but I thought I'd just mention this skills aspect and wondered whether other people spend appreciable time doing this type of practise?
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