Energy prices - gone nuts.

[Monkeyboypaul]

@Colywobbles

Yes, moved from GO to IO a few weeks ago. I have a Zappi and use that as I prefer Charger over Car integration (and Kia still can’t sort their **** out).

It’s good! I’m only using the integration here and there, disabling it otherwise so it doesn’t start draining the PowerWall mid-afternoon and I don’t want to have to rewire the charger downstream as that’s a fudge not a fix. Check their T&C’s though.

~62kWh last night, at 7.5p

Export is 15p too, but not getting much right now.

 

[russdx1]

Had my solax charging my 11.8kw batteries each night using cheap rate and was working great but now they only charge to 25% and it’s because it’s capping the charge rate at 1kw per hour so just runs out of time as set to charge between 2-4am. Not quite sure what has gone wrong… but think software issue due to the perfect 1kw cap I can see on graphs.

 

[russdx1]

Had my solax charging my 11.8kw batteries each night using cheap rate and was working great but now they only charge to 25% and it’s because it’s capping the charge rate at 1kw per hour so just runs out of time as set to charge between 2-4am. Not quite sure what has gone wrong… but think software issue due to the perfect 1kw cap I can see on graphs.

It’s the temp! Apparently batteries really hate cold weather. What I might do (as cables pretty long) is drop them down into the garage which is fully insulated and heated to keep them warm. Learn something every day

 

[taz turbo]

I seem to recall this discussion was has on this thread some time ago?

Fitting batteries or inverters in the roof space is a bit nuts, the inverters don’t like the extreme high temperatures seen in roof spaces, the batteries don’t really like either high or low temperatures.

The guy that installed my system (in a heated garage) suggested it’s madness to fit them in roof spaces if they could be fitted in a space with more stable temperatures, I know this isn’t always possible though. Bonus is that the inverters generate a reasonable amount of heat, so why not have that heating your garage, it’s effectively waste heat.

It was fairly cold here on Saturday, I set of in my car (hadn’t preheated the battery) after driving for about 8 miles the battery was then at one percent higher than when I set off! All due to the battery warming and it playing with the chemistry, similarly once back home and the battery cooled the percentage then dropped as expected.

Chris.

 

[Monkeyboypaul]

I purposefully installed the solar inverter and PowerWall in the most stable temperature part of the house. 14-22deg, very rarely more or less. Get reasonable airflow. Only down side is you can hear the PowerWall’s cooling pump occasionally when you walk past it, but I can live with that.

 

[Biff]

Yea its crap this time of year, i just cant be ****d to feck around with the buying energy selling etc - it is what it is - could also look at that the batteries are taking a break may even last longer just being trickled? To make things worse i had an issue on my BMS (fingers crossed it was a firmware issue that may now be solved by an update they applied a week ago) but slave battery seemed to be going out of synch with master, and the cell of the slave would go below the SOC i had set for minimum, and i suspect into a critical - hey i am going to F my self up if you let me area that made the inverter saw tooth charge the battery set. I was seeing a saw tooth charge profile on the battery (2 x 5KW batteries, one master one slave) where it would draw 2-3Kw from the grid for 15Mins every 45 mins, then when PV came on line it would stop, but the cycle repeated when no PV. I had to change the SOC on the battery to 100% and tell it to charge form mains - cycle the batteries. This then got them back in Synch, but the issue would occur a few weeks later. So wasn't about to do much with the tariff and out of hrs charging etc until this issue got sorted...

 

[russdx1]

Yea its crap this time of year, i just cant be ****d to feck around with the buying energy selling etc - it is what it is - could also look at that the batteries are taking a break may even last longer just being trickled? To make things worse i had an issue on my BMS (fingers crossed it was a firmware issue that may now be solved by an update they applied a week ago) but slave battery seemed to be going out of synch with master, and the cell of the slave would go below the SOC i had set for minimum, and i suspect into a critical - hey i am going to F my self up if you let me area that made the inverter saw tooth charge the battery set. I was seeing a saw tooth charge profile on the battery (2 x 5KW batteries, one master one slave) where it would draw 2-3Kw from the grid for 15Mins every 45 mins, then when PV came on line it would stop, but the cycle repeated when no PV. I had to change the SOC on the battery to 100% and tell it to charge form mains - cycle the batteries. This then got them back in Synch, but the issue would occur a few weeks later. So wasn't about to do much with the tariff and out of hrs charging etc until this issue got sorted...

View attachment 239445

One thing i learned was batteries really don't like cold temps and can almost stop working (ie system will throttle there charge/discharge rates)
I charge mine at night on cheap rate and then run off them in the day so them not charging to full capacity is a bit annoying. I am going to add some basic insulation first to see if the heat of the battery will keep it self warm (as they will get to about 20 degrees by just being in use. If this does not work, I'll drop them down and hang on garage wall which is fully insulated and even has a radiator so stays pretty decent temp all year round.

 

[Biff]

Similar issues with batteries not fully charged. Have purchased another inverter, to ne fitted shortly, so can add more juice during the cheap over night rate.

don't think it will make a difference, as it is the batterie and how they manage If yo have one battery shouldn't be an issue, butt hen of course it aint worth it... As soon as yo have multiple batteries your BMS manages master slave. The slave and master fall out of balance, the slave within 5 days or so shows an SOC of 2.5%... While master is at 24%. Inverter does not see as an issue as the average SOC is still above the fail or grid charge levels. This means i have to charge from Grid and keep them at 100% until they balance. I would have had to have done this once a week. Batteries are now switched off at 50% charge, running on power to load only and excess goes to Grid for now. The way i see it i am saving £5 per charge, and i am not cycling the batteries as much. If you play the electricity market and charge form grid at lower rate at night you will not see this issue. I just cannot be ****d with all that bollux, too much like catching pennies for my system at any rate.

 

[russdx1]

The balance thing on multiple batteries is a real pain and can really affect the storage performance. I was speaking to solax about it as mine was slightly out but they say the new firmware can see the each battery soc independently and self balance them separately over time so will see if this is true or not.

The temp was my biggest issue but luckily adding insulation has really helped and the native heat of the battery now keeps itself warm. Looks like some cold weather coming to n next few weeks as well so will give it a proper test. But have been getting nice 100% charges every night since I added the insulation and bat sits at a steady 28 to 25 degrees.

 

[Taxiturn]

Plenty of knowledgeable people in this thread so wondered if I could sense check plans for my new home (moving later this month).

- New house is late 1980s 4 bed detached, 2 adult no kid household.
- Roof is oriented east/west, unshaded, concrete tile, location Bristol.
- In our current home we used 2,250 kWh of electricity in 2023. New house is a bit larger so this will naturally increase slightly, but then…
- Subject to upcoming survey, we are planning on getting an ASHP (Octopus quote £4,100 all-in net of gov grant inc. any radiator upgrades required) to replace a c. 20 year old gas boiler.
- Given the ASHP will massively increase our electricity consumption we are also considering a solar installation.

I have requested quotes from three installers but so far all we have is one from Octopus, they have quoted £11,200 all-in for 12x435W = 5.2kW panels, Giv-Energy 5.2kWh battery and Giv-Energy hybrid inverter (no inverter capacity stated - but for now assuming it will also be around 5kW). I have asked for a revised quote to see what increasing panel numbers and battery capacity (Octopus top out at around 9kWh for battery) will do to the cost. Looking at Google Earth, based on other houses on the street I reckon the roof could fit up to 32 panels (16 each east and west) if we really maxed it.

Given the above I wondered if any of you had any views as to installation size and expected cost, or if any of you have experience of combining solar with ASHP. I am not entirely convinced as to the cost effectiveness of the battery storage in particular, as I am not particularly motivated to be fully grid-independent and frankly I am seeing a lot of conflicting information with some silly battery payback times quoted (20 yrs+).

Any comments greatly appreciated, thanks!

Simon

 

[Biff]

Plenty of knowledgeable people in this thread so wondered if I could sense check plans for my new home (moving later this month).

- New house is late 1980s 4 bed detached, 2 adult no kid household.
- Roof is oriented east/west, unshaded, concrete tile, location Bristol.
- In our current home we used 2,250 kWh of electricity in 2023. New house is a bit larger so this will naturally increase slightly, but then…
- Subject to upcoming survey, we are planning on getting an ASHP (Octopus quote £4,100 all-in net of gov grant inc. any radiator upgrades required) to replace a c. 20 year old gas boiler.
- Given the ASHP will massively increase our electricity consumption we are also considering a solar installation.

I have requested quotes from three installers but so far all we have is one from Octopus, they have quoted £11,200 all-in for 12x435W = 5.2kW panels, Giv-Energy 5.2kWh battery and Giv-Energy hybrid inverter (no inverter capacity stated - but for now assuming it will also be around 5kW). I have asked for a revised quote to see what increasing panel numbers and battery capacity (Octopus top out at around 9kWh for battery) will do to the cost. Looking at Google Earth, based on other houses on the street I reckon the roof could fit up to 32 panels (16 each east and west) if we really maxed it.

Given the above I wondered if any of you had any views as to installation size and expected cost, or if any of you have experience of combining solar with ASHP. I am not entirely convinced as to the cost effectiveness of the battery storage in particular, as I am not particularly motivated to be fully grid-independent and frankly I am seeing a lot of conflicting information with some silly battery payback times quoted (20 yrs+).

Any comments greatly appreciated, thanks!

Simon

Sounds a bit pricy to me…

had mine put in April last year. N/S ridge 30 deg roof, two story house - Just over £12 k for 16 panels, sunsynk 5kw Hybrid inverter. 2 x 5 kw batteries and a solar powered waterheater switch.

 

[Biff]

The balance thing on multiple batteries is a real pain and can really affect the storage performance. I was speaking to solax about it as mine was slightly out but they say the new firmware can see the each battery soc independently and self balance them separately over time so will see if this is true or not.

The temp was my biggest issue but luckily adding insulation has really helped and the native heat of the battery now keeps itself warm. Looks like some cold weather coming to n next few weeks as well so will give it a proper test. But have been getting nice 100% charges every night since I added the insulation and bat sits at a steady 28 to 25 degrees.

Interesting yours are drifting and they are cycled daily. How much drift @100%?

Mine drift as they arent getting to 100%. This is where i am told the balancing is done. Pretty much same suppliers of batteries regardless of brand… so BMS in batteries is the same, or so i was told…

 

[Taxiturn]

Sounds a bit pricy to me…

had mine put in April last year. N/S ridge 30 deg roof, two story house - Just over £12 k for 16 panels, sunsynk 5kw Hybrid inverter. 2 x 5 kw batteries and a solar powered waterheater switch.

I understand that prices have continued to increase, but yes I am hoping that one of the other quotes I’ve requested will come in cheaper. Octopus have also offered £1,000 off I put the deposit down this month

 

[daveyp]

Since I've been looking (Google) at solar I'm boarded with Facebook ads etc.

Seen this yesterday and wondered why the batteries as seen here are not rack mounted and have been put in wooden chest of draws more curious than anything if anyone has the answers.

 

[Biff]

Since I've been looking (Google) at solar I'm boarded with Facebook ads etc.

Seen this yesterday and wondered why the batteries as seen here are not rack mounted and have been put in wooden chest of draws more curious than anything if anyone has the answers.

wood is a good non conductive material. Yes flammable, but it chars and to be honest, if a battery did run away; it don't matter what you put it in the entire room will be filled with toxic, flammable super heated gasses .

 

[Fantazia2]

Since I've been looking (Google) at solar I'm boarded with Facebook ads etc.

Seen this yesterday and wondered why the batteries as seen here are not rack mounted and have been put in wooden chest of draws more curious than anything if anyone has the answers.

They look like Rack mounted models to me, possibly done like that to save on having to buy 3 short racks so they can be located under the inverters on the wall.

Probably also a lot cheaper and a smaller mounting solution that buying 3 cabinets.

 

[russdx1]

I just stuck mine in the garage loft and forgot about them lol, they weight a flipping ton and just sit on the boarded out floor.

 

[Alan Syson]

And they’re about to get nuttier now Biden, or should I say his string pullers, has reneged on his promise to keep Europe fully supplied with LNG after blowing up Nordstream.
That nasty Orange Man who the Germans laughed at has been proven right again…

 

[Calimori]

@Alan Syson, there are so many yet to be proven allegations in your post. Russian accuses the US. US accuses Ukraine.
EU has larger gas surplus now so should not be as vulnerable.
Biden is this, Trump is that, both can be wrong or right. No point debating that point. I just wish the US could have one strong candidate that didn’t divide the nation and stop getting caught in partisan arguments.

 

[Alan Syson]

@Alan Syson, there are so many yet to be proven allegations in your post. Russian accuses the US. US accuses Ukraine.
EU has larger gas surplus now so should not be as vulnerable.
Biden is this, Trump is that, both can be wrong or right. No point debating that point. I just wish the US could have one strong candidate that didn’t divide the nation and stop getting caught in partisan arguments.

Biden. “I will destroy Nordstream 2”,
That paragon of evil Victoria Nuland, who coincidentally was one of the instigators behind the 2014 putsch to successfully depose Ukraine’s leader. “If Russia invades Ukraine Nordstream 2 will not move forward”.
Joining the dots yet?
Wake up and smell the coffee

 

[Calimori]

No thanks, I don’t want the coffee you are drinking Alan.

 

[Alan Syson]

I hate coffee. Loose leaf tea, pot pot and freshly boiled water

 

[Calimori]

Me too. See, we are more alike than we thought.

 

[Alan Syson]

Me too. See, we are more alike than we thought.

Yeah. But No leccy means no pinball. How the hell am I going to play my EATPM once @s000m gets the new playfield in?

 

[taz turbo]

My solar installation is one year old today! I’m still very impressed by it all and some of the figures just make me feel warm inside…

Total generated 10.91MWh

10.9T CO2 reduction
287Kg sulphur dioxide reduction
3578Kg of standard coal reduction

I'm well aware the last three are open to a lot of interpretation, and made to make you think, that can’t be a bad thing?

Obviously it’s summertime again and it’s working about the best it’s going to, but another month where our electricity bill is negative, and that’s including doing 28-30K miles per year in an electric car, of which 95% annually is home charged, of that, this month 100% was home charged.



Chris.

 

[Mooseman]

Last months entire eleccy was paid for Inc standing charges and a league meet where my usage went off the graph and they paid me £12.11. Yeah I’m happy with solar too

 

[SeikoKid]

My solar installation is one year old today! I’m still very impressed by it all and some of the figures just make me feel warm inside…

Total generated 10.91MWh

10.9T CO2 reduction
287Kg sulphur dioxide reduction
3578Kg of standard coal reduction

I'm well aware the last three are open to a lot of interpretation, and made to make you think, that can’t be a bad thing?

Obviously it’s summertime again and it’s working about the best it’s going to, but another month where our electricity bill is negative, and that’s including doing 28-30K miles per year in an electric car, of which 95% annually is home charged, of that, this month 100% was home charged.



Chris.

What supplier and tarrif are you with ? Are you with batteries ?
I’ve got 5.7kw panels with 24kw batteries but have to charge the car in the off peak when the inverter is set to charge from the grid so i’m not charging the car from the house batteries

 

[taz turbo]

What supplier and tarrif are you with ? Are you with batteries ?
I’ve got 5.7kw panels with 24kw batteries but have to charge the car in the off peak when the inverter is set to charge from the grid so i’m not charging the car from the house batteries

I’m with Octopus, on their Flux import /export tariff. As I see this tariff, the off peak import is 1p or so less than the day rate export, therefore it doesn’t really make any financial difference to use off peak or battery storage for car charging, as when it starts exporting during the day rate it cancels out the off peak costs.

The peak day rate for export is just a bonus, and when you can then export pretty much the full solar generation during peak I just smile a little. We’ve never imported any electricity during the peak time and I really wouldn’t want to with what they charge!

Chris.

 

[SeikoKid]

I’m with Octopus, on their Flux import /export tariff. As I see this tariff, the off peak import is 1p or so less than the day rate export, therefore it doesn’t really make any financial difference to use off peak or battery storage for car charging, as when it starts exporting during the day rate it cancels out the off peak costs.

The peak day rate for export is just a bonus, and when you can then export pretty much the full solar generation during peak I just smile a little. We’ve never imported any electricity during the peak time and I really wouldn’t want to with what they charge!

Chris.

Ok, so your set up is basically the same all bar the prices. I’m on the night rate. But i don’t see the logic to charge a battery then use that battery to charge another battery. There is step down loss and additional life wear on the house batteries
I was hoping you were using a different solution or your car charger was connected differently to your incoming mains to bypass the battery system ?
I’ve looked at an off grid conversion but it’s expensive, having to replace the invertor and install contactors on the incomer

 

[taz turbo]

Ok, so your set up is basically the same all bar the prices. I’m on the night rate. But i don’t see the logic to charge a battery then use that battery to charge another battery. There is step down loss and additional life wear on the house batteries
I was hoping you were using a different solution or your car charger was connected differently to your incoming mains to bypass the battery system ?
I’ve looked at an off grid conversion but it’s expensive, having to replace the invertor and install contactors on the incomer

My logic is that if I’m putting a medium/large charge to the car (100KWh battery) with my rates at 02.00-05.00 at 13.94p/KWh and day rate at 23.23p/KWh, I would have it charging (7.5KWh charger) from the storage batteries (41Kw), starting prior to the 02.00 cheap rate, then between 02.00-05.00 charge the car and the batteries on cheap rate, any further car charging if needed from the batteries after 05.00 from the cheap rate stored electricity.

I have a very good warranty on my batteries, inverters and panels (double all the standard warranty duration due to the system being installed by one of the manufacturers ‘master installers’, a grand title ) I’ve no concerns on using them as intended, the warranty will take me comfortably into retirement when my annual mileage should tumble.

Chris.