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Wasted Time At Pinball Tournaments

DRD

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Oct 26, 2014
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I have hosted the league at my house, and taken machines to events - so I know the effort that goes into making pinball happen. Without guys exposing their houses/ cars/ spines/ games/ marriages to damage these things could not occur

One thing that can reduce the fun of tournaments and in my opinion could be very easily remedied, is excessive game times. This is something I have seen happen at a number of places over the last couple of years. And it reduces my appetite for attending and I know that it puts some others off too.

And I also think that it may stop some competitions from happening altogether as tournaments can go on all day. There are events where there are loads of machines present and competitions could happen but don't.

When you get a good player on a long game (ie Sterns designed with the home owner in mind) with easy tilt and outlane settings, it can make competitions really drag on. Meaning the waiting v competing time is out of kilter. It reminds me of scuba diving where you spend ages getting fitted for gear/ carrying it/ waiting around/ travelling to the dive site/ kitting up v a small amount of time actually under water.

When one set of players draws games like Medusa, Flash Gordon and Twilight Zone - and another gets Spiderman, LOTR and the Hobbit the time differentials can be huge.

There is obviously a balance to be struck here. I am not suggesting Flash Gordon with a hair trigger tilt. But nor am I suggesting AFM with no tilt like a recent one I was at. Terry has a range of games from EMs to the latest Sterns but he has relatively tight tilts on his games for example, so when he hosts events things move along nicely in my opinion. So I went round my games and shifted outlane posts and tilt settings to try to achieve a similar thing - and had @ronsplooter over for a second opinion on the matter. On my old WPT, ball times were so long that I took the outlane posts out altogether.

Recognising the enormous effort required in getting games to tournaments, setting them up..... Might I suggest that folk consider taking just 5 mins extra to tighten the tilts and/ or shift outlane posts of known long ball time games to keep the competition moving along as this means everyone would get the chance to play more competitive games. Much of the fun to me is playing with new faces in the tournanents, and it is not the same playing casually between rounds.
 
i prefer long ball times, easy games, loose tilts, narrow outlanes, extra balls etc.

appreciate that the good guys need games set to hard, but the competitive crowd is the minority and as far as i can see, most of us are numpties with zero skillz, so i wouldn't be in favour of shows being full of games that are set to hard on purpose, sorry. i love it that there was no competition area with walled off games at 8BF, so i wouldn't recommend making some games harder. catch 22 i think. it seemed to go okay at the weekend, only the final round or two is where the same best 8-16 players need reining in a bit - maybe for the semifinals onwards, the games can be toughened up, but i hope this doesn't happen before then.
 
i prefer long ball times, easy games, loose tilts, narrow outlanes, extra balls etc.

appreciate that the good guys need games set to hard, but the competitive crowd is the minority and as far as i can see, most of us are numpties with zero skillz, so i wouldn't be in favour of shows being full of games that are set to hard on purpose, sorry. i love it that there was no competition area with walled off games at 8BF, so i wouldn't recommend making some games harder. catch 22 i think. it seemed to go okay at the weekend, only the final round or two is where the same best 8-16 players need reining in a bit - maybe for the semifinals onwards, the games can be toughened up, but i hope this doesn't happen before then.
 
Aah, that explains it, I only went on the Sunday.
i must be going mad then. are you not the dude with the bald head who told me he does to bed at 4am and wakes at 10am every single day? got one machine, had it 3 months, a Centaur, and already you stripped it back on top and underneath then put it all back together again? i assumed you must be a cyborg ...... but anyway, i met you on the Friday, or am i losing more marbles again ......

Thomas Tank Engine on meth.jpg
 
i must be going mad then. are you not the dude with the bald head who told me he does to bed at 4am and wakes at 10am every single day? got one machine, had it 3 months, a Centaur, and already you stripped it back on top and underneath then put it all back together again? i assumed you must be a cyborg ...... but anyway, i met you on the Friday, or am i losing more marbles again ......

View attachment 44345
I'm guilty of the bald head, but the rest is someone else!
 
To set a machine up properly - so it is in absolute perfect condition for a comp can take up to half an hour. Making sure it's perfectly level, correct playfield angle, tilt set just right, all software settings set to eliminate random awards etc, move outlane posts, ensure flippers are set correctly. Many of these settings will be completely different from how they are set at home and will need doing on the day once set up. There is no way that the NLP members could do this, so the onus would be on the original owners.
However, the way people would set them would be completely different. When I take a machine to a show I generally have to make it easier, as I have my machines set at home harder than average.
Having a machine set up that hard that ball times are minimal is more likely to discourage the newer players rather than reduce queues.

I would be against having machines set up purely to reduce ball length time, to such an extent that it becomes a lottery. It's meant to be a competition, a judge of skill, not a crapshoot or who can plunge the skill shot the best. Even when I'm on the receiving end of watching someone have a mega game or waiting to play it next it's still enjoyable to watch someone get to parts of the game I may not have seen before.
 
i must be going mad then. are you not the dude with the bald head who told me he does to bed at 4am and wakes at 10am every single day? got one machine, had it 3 months, a Centaur, and already you stripped it back on top and underneath then put it all back together again? i assumed you must be a cyborg ...... but anyway, i met you on the Friday, or am i losing more marbles again ......
You're thinking of @Ruk. Nice guy, hope he sticks around.
 
The American guys at PAPA go to extreme measures to make sure their games are competitively tough. From taking out outlane posts, adding rubbers to make shots narrower, and even removing the plunger on games like Ripleys, where an experienced competitor would take forever repeatedly trying to make the skill shot, and deliberately draining (before making 4 switch hits) to retry

But they also have the luxury of owning every one of those 300 or so games. They also use those games exclusively for competitions.

I'd love for us to have a Papa equivalent in the UK, but don't see that happening any time soon. Until then I agree with others that doing this at UK events would be too arduous, and generally a bad idea. I think so long as the games are 'fair', and each player has the same advantages, then game on.
 
There are many other, more subtle, ways of shortening ball times, without having to resort to the obvious measures of removing outlane posts which people see as unfair.
Making the slings supersensitive is the most obvious one, along with changing the feeds from loops to hit the slings rather than feeding directly to the flippers, polishing parts of the table so they run faster, changing the angle of the table (not necessarily making it steeper) to produce more lateral movement, adjusting requirements for lighting locks, introducing a "ball hop" as the ball comes down the inlane to the flipper,shortening ballsave times, or even removing them from multiballs.

IF a tournament is ran at NLP/Play Expo this October I hope to run it more along the lines of a PAPA event - watch this space.

PS: There is never ANY wasted time at a pinball show. Seeing the latest machines, seeing the oldest machines, chatting to people who you haven't seen in a few months, playing "less popular" machines, even just sitting down and having a cup of tea watching everyone else play.
 
As a very new person back to pinball - I would say that I would exercise extreme caution about making games harder in an event situation such as 8bitflip where there may be newer people or people with no interest in pinball anymore, playing the same machines as those available in the tournament pool. In these cases of 'shared' machines, fast ball drains are what cost pinball a lot of popularity in the first place.

It's one thing to have very quick ball times when you're aware of how a game is either designed to be difficult or has been modified for difficulty, and you know it's just that game/machine and you'll go right back to games you prefer if it's not your thing - but if you're just seeing it as you sucking at pinball... you won't come back. And more people playing the games are what benefits all of us (except perhaps in the ridiculous machine prices as of late...)

My experience here comes from my first arcade addiction/love, which were music games like Dance Dance Revolution. Easy to laugh, but I was sent all-expenses-paid to Korea to play it, so yeah, I got heavily into it :D But an important lesson I learnt from that one is how explosively the game landed in the UK shores on the back of two very well made European releases, Euromix and Euromix 2 - these games especially nailed the new-player experience, with easier options trivial to find and memorable and catchy songs to draw in new players, but the hard stuff was still all there. Those games covered new people well, as well as experienced people. Additionally, on easy mode, the machine would let you play the full three songs credit, no matter how brain dead you would play. Prior to that, it was a niche game with no real arcade presence or popularity, for virtually exactly the same game even with a lot of distribution in a prior release.

In pinball terms, things like ball saver are huge deals. I am very much aware that while in Arcade Club slamming the hell out of Twilight Zone, which is not a popular table at that venue, the Metallica table was utterly beloved and would have people taking selfies on it, comparing scores and basically loving the hell out of the machine - and from what I saw and overheard, it's because that machine would 'let them play'. Whereas I would see people try Twilight Zone, lose balls extremely quickly, and then not bother for a repeat credit. A recognisable theme helps a lot to ease people in - Addams Family proved that point, but I also think that machine would have done even better if it had a ball saver for newer players. There is truly nothing as disheartening than quick, instant deaths in a game (quick drains.)

As far as enticing players that like competitive play - you don't need to specially accommodate us kinds of guys. My own example - what pushed me over the 'thinking about it' edge and sent me diving head-first into pinball was the below video. The combination of seeing a working, established competitive scene, a game that I knew from my childhood configured to play so god-damn rough with experienced players, and then finding this forum - that's all I needed despite my history with pinball being the same as many peoples; tried a few machines, had repeated fast ball drains, and lost a lot of hope and interest for many years.

EDIT: Hot damn, I wrote a huge essay. Apologies. As is evident from the post, I have a lot to say when arcades and issues around trying to get people into them come up...
 
As a very new person back to pinball - I would say that I would exercise extreme caution about making games harder in an event situation such as 8bitflip where there may be newer people or people with no interest in pinball anymore, playing the same machines as those available in the tournament pool. In these cases of 'shared' machines, fast ball drains are what cost pinball a lot of popularity in the first place.

It's one thing to have very quick ball times when you're aware of how a game is either designed to be difficult or has been modified for difficulty, and you know it's just that game/machine and you'll go right back to games you prefer if it's not your thing - but if you're just seeing it as you sucking at pinball... you won't come back. And more people playing the games are what benefits all of us (except perhaps in the ridiculous machine prices as of late...)

My experience here comes from my first arcade addiction/love, which were music games like Dance Dance Revolution. Easy to laugh, but I was sent all-expenses-paid to Korea to play it, so yeah, I got heavily into it :D But an important lesson I learnt from that one is how explosively the game landed in the UK shores on the back of two very well made European releases, Euromix and Euromix 2 - these games especially nailed the new-player experience, with easier options trivial to find and memorable and catchy songs to draw in new players, but the hard stuff was still all there. Those games covered new people well, as well as experienced people. Additionally, on easy mode, the machine would let you play the full three songs credit, no matter how brain dead you would play. Prior to that, it was a niche game with no real arcade presence or popularity, for virtually exactly the same game even with a lot of distribution in a prior release.

In pinball terms, things like ball saver are huge deals. I am very much aware that while in Arcade Club slamming the hell out of Twilight Zone, which is not a popular table at that venue, the Metallica table was utterly beloved and would have people taking selfies on it, comparing scores and basically loving the hell out of the machine - and from what I saw and overheard, it's because that machine would 'let them play'. Whereas I would see people try Twilight Zone, lose balls extremely quickly, and then not bother for a repeat credit. A recognisable theme helps a lot to ease people in - Addams Family proved that point, but I also think that machine would have done even better if it had a ball saver for newer players. There is truly nothing as disheartening than quick, instant deaths in a game (quick drains.)

As far as enticing players that like competitive play - you don't need to specially accommodate us kinds of guys. My own example - what pushed me over the 'thinking about it' edge and sent me diving head-first into pinball was the below video. The combination of seeing a working, established competitive scene, a game that I knew from my childhood configured to play so god-damn rough with experienced players, and then finding this forum - that's all I needed despite my history with pinball being the same as many peoples; tried a few machines, had repeated fast ball drains, and lost a lot of hope and interest for many years.

EDIT: Hot damn, I wrote a huge essay. Apologies. As is evident from the post, I have a lot to say when arcades and issues around trying to get people into them come up...
Thanks for the video, made me miss the F14 I had here for a short time, I was hoping for a video of you on DDR though! :D
 
Addams Family proved that point, but I also think that machine would have done even better if it had a ball saver for newer players
Unfortunately Addams Family does not have a ball saver feature anywhere. It's not just newer players that hate this, I've recorded a score of 3 million in competition on Addams, as well as over 1 Billion.
 
Thanks for the video, made me miss the F14 I had here for a short time, I was hoping for a video of you on DDR though! :D
Hah - I didn't get much useful video over the years, it's one of those games where players only want to see the screen, but non-players like to see the player as well. My footage from Korea is trapped on MiniDV tapes somewhere... until I finally do something about that, this is the best demo video I have, from about 9 years ago at an MCM Expo in London... in the same way that PAPA makes its machines harder over in that scene we used custom software to play truly lunatic nonsense...

I'm now fat, bored of the game, and more badly asthmatic than I was in those days ;)
 
Hah - I didn't get much useful video over the years, it's one of those games where players only want to see the screen, but non-players like to see the player as well. My footage from Korea is trapped on MiniDV tapes somewhere... until I finally do something about that, this is the best demo video I have, from about 9 years ago at an MCM Expo in London... in the same way that PAPA makes its machines harder over in that scene we used custom software to play truly lunatic nonsense...

I'm now fat, bored of the game, and more badly asthmatic than I was in those days ;)
Holy crap! I don't even know how people can process whats happening on the screen there let alone move feet fast enough to act it out!
 
i must be going mad then. are you not the dude with the bald head who told me he does to bed at 4am and wakes at 10am every single day? got one machine, had it 3 months, a Centaur, and already you stripped it back on top and underneath then put it all back together again? i assumed you must be a cyborg ...... but anyway, i met you on the Friday, or am i losing more marbles again ......

View attachment 44345

Dan - that was mark aka R UK .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

woah you certainly seemed to know what you were doing on that thing, i'd like to have seen more of your feet and less of the screen, as I can't believe you weren't just standing there vibrating like an eppy

I never got to play Metallica at the weekend - tried once and was walking towards it when a group of 4 nipped in instead - but played the TZ and the TAF plenty, and they didn't seem too bad to me. as said above, neither game comes with a ballsave as standard (though one, or both, can be adapted with a novel ROM, I think) and despite the fact everyone nowadays apparently raves about MET as the best thing since sliced bread, I still reckon that in 10, 20 years, both TZ and TAF will continue to be top 10 games whereas MET will have had its day.
 
In my view as long as it's the same for everyone it shouldn't really matter - the top will still be at the top the bottom at the bottom :)

Not sure how robotgreg has his machines setup but they where perfect for compo play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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