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The thing about EM pinball machines....

Ashbo

Ashbo

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Sorry if a post like this already exists, but starting a chat about EM pins as there has been a bit of chatter in the ebay threads.

For me, I love them. I'd never seen one before this year, but as soon as I heard one on YouTube, I was hooked. The clacks, the bells, the chimes, the sparks...

Bought my first ever pin earlier this year, not an EM, but I 100% bought it because it had real chimes.

My first real EM is still being fixed up, but it gets played the most in my house in a line up including a virtual pinball and two data east.

It's not actually like playing a modern pinball at all, infact, although some parts look the same, it's a totally different thing. Some say they are basic and simple, maybe, but they are still fun and better when it's competitive.

I sure my first, Williams Expo, will not be my last, but I am sure I'm not the only one with an unexplained soft spot for EMs? Am I?
 
Well, I’ve never seen or played a full-sized EM in real life. However, I grew up playing Tomy Astroshooter Pinball, which is a kid’s pinball machine inspired, I think, by Williams’ Space Shuttle. So, when I got my Fish Tales in July, I was confused to discover that - unlike with Astroshooter Pinball - you couldn’t operate the flippers of Fish Tales when the electricity was turned off.

I’ve subsequently enjoyed Lucky Hand/Jack’s Open (and El Dorado) on Pinball Arcade.

I’m interested in visiting one of the US pinball museums/arcades that has EMs available to play. I’d also love to restore a broken EM to full operation because I’m fascinated by the intricate mechanical moving parts (video posted here for people who missed it on the other thread).

www.popularmechanics.com

The Mesmerizing Mechanics of an Old-School Pinball Machine

A lot goes into a game that takes under a minute to lose.
www.popularmechanics.com www.popularmechanics.com
 
EM's are great just play them a lot or they start to fault. We've had a few in the club usually last about 4 hours although the club's latest Fireball made 5 hours before it died :D
 
Neil McRae said:
EM's are great just play them a lot or they start to fault. We've had a few in the club usually last about 4 hours although the club's latest Fireball made 5 hours before it died :D
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Well, that’s odd. I played my Astroshooter Pinball routinely as a kid and my sons are now playing it ( ) and that’s a toy EM with plastic parts that’s not designed to repair.

I mean, it’s not as though most of the older machines at FlipOut see much play in the club either, is it? I’ve had uninterrupted access to the club’s copy of TNA everytime I’ve visited and I assume the EM machines were also stationed in the ‘alcove of shame’.
 
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VeeMonroe said:
Well, that’s odd. I played my Astroshooter Pinball routinely as a kid and my sons are now playing it ( ) and that’s a toy EM with plastic parts that’s not designed to repair.

I mean, it’s not as though most of the older machines at FlipOut see much play in the club either, is it? I’ve had uninterrupted access to the club’s copy of TNA everytime I’ve visited and I assume the EM machines were also stationed in the ‘alcove of shame’.
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There is only one EM at flip out currently (as far as i know!) . There was a different one before but I never saw it working, it wasn't in the side room, it was hidden at the end where beat the clock is now.

I don't understand why you call it the alcove of shame? It's right next to the entrance! They are together (I assume and also seems obvious) because they suit being together, due to the different style of cabinet and playfield incline. They get played, it's just most new people to pinball (who often visit at weekends) often steer away from classic games, i did the same and it's only recently I've started to appreciate them more.

If you call that the alcove of shame how bad must the room right at the back be? 😂
 
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Neil McRae said:
EM's are great just play them a lot or they start to fault. We've had a few in the club usually last about 4 hours although the club's latest Fireball made 5 hours before it died :D
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Yeah, they definitely break. Fixing them is also part of the charm, however, if you have a club I can see this wouldn't be, unless it's a repair shop club :)
 
Regarding breaking, it does seem that a deep clean of every moving part can do wonders for reliability.
 
Ashbo said:
Oh, and even my wife loves it, she made a classy topper from a battery operated air freshener...
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Just showing of my stylish EM topper. Thinking of putting these out at £150 each?? They are compatible with all EM and vintage pinballs from 1930s to date
 

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@HomerRamone - but seriously, the thing that may help you resist is the prices are volatile. I only get to see sold prices on ebay and they are on the high side for most that do sell. Then the classified ads often ask way too much too.

I managed to buy mine for £400, but in reality that was too much, considering the work (peaceful and relaxing) that's gone into it. I have to admit, best £400 I've ever spent.

It seems now 450 is the rock bottom price for a machine that's complete except for glass and lockbar.

Then you have the skyjump recently on ebay £660 that the seller has let go for £550 on Gumtree.???? It's a weird economy, broke ones are more desirable??
 
VeeMonroe said:
Well, that’s odd. I played my Astroshooter Pinball routinely as a kid and my sons are now playing it ( ) and that’s a toy EM with plastic parts that’s not designed to repair.

I mean, it’s not as though most of the older machines at FlipOut see much play in the club either, is it? I’ve had uninterrupted access to the club’s copy of TNA everytime I’ve visited and I assume the EM machines were also stationed in the ‘alcove of shame’.
Click to expand...

have you been on the grogg?

The machines in the side alcove are all what are known as solid state machines. TNA is viewed as modern solid state, your Tomy kids toy is more SS than EM but its hardly comparable.

There is now a fireball there which is electro mechanical and broken.
 
David_Vi said:
There is only one EM at flip out currently (as far as i know!) . There was a different one before but I never saw it working, it wasn't in the side room, it was hidden at the end where beat the clock is now.

I don't understand why you call it the alcove of shame? It's right next to the entrance! They are together (I assume and also seems obvious) because they suit being together, due to the different style of cabinet and playfield incline. They get played, it's just most new people to pinball (who often visit at weekends) often steer away from classic games, i did the same and it's only recently I've started to appreciate them more.

If you call that the alcove of shame how bad must the room right at the back be? 😂
Click to expand...
Okay, bearing in mind that I LOVE older pinball machines, I call it the ‘alcove of shame’ because it’s felt unloved and deserted everytime I’ve visited FlipOut. It’s like the place that old pinball machines are sent to die.

Most of the 1980s machines are in there (e.g. Medusa, Embryon, Farfalla and Pinball Champ) and - when I’ve visited on a weekend - it’s seemed that no one ever goes in to play them. Also, Cobra and Farfalla have been out-of-action for weeks (I’ve been told the reason for this, but it’s not mine to share).

The times when I’ve visited on a weekend, there’s usually a couple of people playing AFM, MB, TZ or CFOB lagoon in the main section, no one in the ‘alcove of shame’ (despite it being near the door), and I’ve thought the venue was suspiciously empty until I‘ve wandered into the ‘Stern Room’ at the back - at which point, I realise that’s where everyone else is.

I mean, it’s great for social distancing, but…


Neil McRae said:
have you been on the grogg?

The machines in the side alcove are all what are known as solid state machines. TNA is viewed as modern solid state, your Tomy kids toy is more SS than EM but its hardly comparable.

There is now a fireball there which is electro mechanical and broken.
Click to expand...

I know they’re SS machines. They have electronic displays. TNA is a modern pinball machine that happens to have a layout a bit like a SS.

I hadn’t seen an EM machine at FlipOut, but assumed that any EM machine would also have been stationed in the ‘Alcove of Shame’ and you’ve just confirmed that this is, indeed, the case and that it’s also... broken.

I’m delighted that TNA is in the ‘Alcove of Shame’ and not the Stern room because, otherwise, I’d never get a go on it. As it is, I’ve spent pretty-much all afternoon playing on it and no one’s bothered me.
 
Ashbo said:
@HomerRamone
Then you have the skyjump recently on ebay £660 that the seller has let go for £550 on Gumtree.???? It's a weird economy, broke ones are more desirable??
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This helps me resist more - was thinking of making him an offer as its just down the road. I know however that had I done so and such an offer had been accepted that something else I *really* wanted would turn up. And since I haven't really the room for 1 more ATM, 2 is as out as counting to 5 with the holy hand grenade of Antioch :)
 
People play the machines they want to play, regardless where they are. I think even if TNA was at the back it wouldn't be suddenly played lots, people get drawn to the popular ones or the licenced ones so over look TNA and more obscure pins like the Zacs.

There's loads in the main area I barely see played when I'm there
 
Its still on ebay - although the make offer button has gone (and there are still zero bids)
(It crossed my mind if hes sold it on GT for 550 I could have offered 600 to rub salt in the would if I was feeling cruel - course I know exactly how that would backfire on me :) )
 
HomerRamone said:
This helps me resist more - was thinking of making him an offer as its just down the road. I know however that had I done so and such an offer had been accepted that something else I *really* wanted would turn up. And since I haven't really the room for 1 more ATM, 2 is as out as counting to 5 with the holy hand grenade of Antioch :)
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I approached him asking if offers were accepted....no, you are safe, he said he'd sold it at £550
 
Deffo like the current price. And the fact it need stuff doing - certainly if I get one, I want one to fix not just play. (but that kinda goes for SS ones too :) )
 
David_Vi said:
People play the machines they want to play, regardless where they are. I think even if TNA was at the back it wouldn't be suddenly played lots, people get drawn to the popular ones or the licenced ones so over look TNA and more obscure pins like the Zacs.

There's loads in the main area I barely see played when I'm there
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I only found the TNA by accident when I was exploring the older pinball machines. I'd never heard of it, but the combination of the old-school layout and modern lighting/LCD fascinated me, so I gave it a go. I really enjoyed it, so I made a note and then Googled it when I got home. I suspect other people looking into that alcove just assume it's old machines, some of them broken, and don't realise the TNA is there.

I now normally try a few new-to-me machines each time I'm at FlipOut - just to see how I feel about them. I generally play AFM, TNA and STTNG, as well, and I've recently enjoyed Alien Poker.

I'm not sure how people either find, or decide what to play, at FlipOut TBH. I came into playing pinball through the Williams and Pinball Arcade apps, so - in the first instance - we just tried the stuff we enjoyed on the Williams app (e.g. MM, COTBL) or which I'd heard about when researched my Fish Tales (e.g. TAF, TZ). Then, when I discovered the PinballInfo forums, I noticed people hyping up the post-2010 Sterns. I assumed they must be super-amazing, so we tried a few at FlipOut in the Stern Room and then went to Chief Coffee, as well. Then, I got into playing Haunted House, Black Hole, El Dorado, Genie and Jack's Open on Pinball Arcade, so I tried playing some of the older SS machines at FlipOut (e.g. Spirit, Genie) and went looking to see if they had any EMs.
HomerRamone said:
Deffo like the current price. And the fact it need stuff doing - certainly if I get one, I want one to fix not just play. (but that kinda goes for SS ones too :) )
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Yeah. I think I have two different interests: trying to get good at pinball and tinkering with things. They often lend themselves to different tables.

[Sorry, folks, wandered off topic - will stop]
 
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VeeMonroe said:
Yeah. I think I have two different interests: trying to get good at pinball and tinkering with things. They often lend themselves to different tables.

[Sorry, folks, wandered off topic - will stop]
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Don't think its totally off topic.
I expect its a somewhat different skillset fixing/restoring/cleaning/etc EMs vs solid state one. I would think fixing SS ones is possibly going to be more complicated because it potentially requires a greater depth of knowledge in terms of electronics. but never having had to fix an EM this is pure speculation.
I enjoy both really. Different enjoyment from the 2 but both satisfying for sure
 
EMs are great fun. I find them easier to work on than their electronic decedents...
I love the inherent history they have, hi scores, names, love hearts etc you find scrawled into the side, and the stuff you find in the bottom prior to refurbing - apart from the rat $hit that is...
I have to say every single EM i have completely stripped down and reworked works 100% fine, even if they are put away for months or years on end.. Great example is the horse racing wood rail i did for Jon melleney. it was tombstoned for a year or so after i did it, he brought it to Pinfest this year and it worked first time and stayed working, apart from the coins people were putting in the coin mech which jammed one of the switches down.

TBH, IMHO they will outlast the SS, DM, LCDs etc in their original form - they dont have PCBs that will no longer be made. Just bunches of coils and relays. No electrolytic to dry up or batteries to leak.

On my bucket list is to repurpose an EM title and add a few new features, just need the time. Already have the theme and it is perfect.

JB
 
Matt Vince said:
We currently have Fireball and Wizard at Flip Out but there is a lack of knowledge on how to maintain them. This is something I am keen to develop myself as they are great fun games when working and I hope will add something to the club.
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I would really really like to learn how to maintain them!! :)

I have some basic knowledge of 1990s-era Bally/Williams machines because I’ve been tinkering with our Fish Tales (although I have to rely on kind people on the internet for anything beyond replacing broken parts on top of the playfield). However, I was completely foxed by where to start looking over the Cobra, which is 1980s, never mind anything older than that!

I hadn’t noticed the Wizard and had completely missed the non-functioning Fireball. If the Wizard is working on Sunday, we’re planning to go to FlipOut, so I’ll give it a go then! :)
 
Biff said:
EMs are great fun. I find them easier to work on than their electronic decedents...
I love the inherent history they have, hi scores, names, love hearts etc you find scrawled into the side, and the stuff you find in the bottom prior to refurbing - apart from the rat $hit that is...
I have to say every single EM i have completely stripped down and reworked works 100% fine, even if they are put away for months or years on end.. Great example is the horse racing wood rail i did for Jon melleney. it was tombstoned for a year or so after i did it, he brought it to Pinfest this year and it worked first time and stayed working, apart from the coins people were putting in the coin mech which jammed one of the switches down.

TBH, IMHO they will outlast the SS, DM, LCDs etc in their original form - they dont have PCBs that will no longer be made. Just bunches of coils and relays. No electrolytic to dry up or batteries to leak.

On my bucket list is to repurpose an EM title and add a few new features, just need the time. Already have the theme and it is perfect.

JB
Click to expand...

sorry biff couldn't resist LOL

 
More seriously, the guys at PAPA when they had their collection would always say keeping an EM healthy was about playing them alot, but I've never owned one so hard for me to say. There are some that I absolutely love to play; others (El Toro) that I'd torch tomorrow :D

The EM's at Pinburgh were are great leveller as it was pure pinball.

Neil.
 
Neil McRae said:
More seriously, the guys at PAPA when they had their collection would always say keeping an EM healthy was about playing them alot, but I've never owned one so hard for me to say. There are some that I absolutely love to play; others (El Toro) that I'd torch tomorrow :D

The EM's at Pinburgh were are great leveller as it was pure pinball.

Neil.
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This El Toro? https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/el-toro-bally/ratings Described by someone in the Pinside ratings section as 'the worst EM ever made' 😎

In general, I tend to prefer EMs with knock-down targets rather than loads of lanes and rollovers; it's easier to work out what I should be shooting at. Hence, why I like El Dorado and Jack's Open, but not Centrigrade 37.

I also HATE Central Park.
 
Some thoughts about e/m games;

An e/m does what it's designed to do simply using electrical rather than electronic components, despite Williams' company name once being "Williams Electronic Manufacturing Co.". All its functions are achieved with solenoids, relays and at least one motor. Those solenoids operate step units, often with wiper contacts, and reset the relay banks, but there's nothing hidden away in program code, and very little that can be easily damaged by a careless mistake (unlike even the simplest solid state, as I found to my regret). And e/m's (single player ones, anyway) can have surprisingly complex features; I can't even begin to work out how Hot Line operates that rollover button matrix sequence*.

Those who feel happier tackling playfield repairs than circuit board ones, though that's probably most of us, needn't really fear electro mechanicals. It may be better to start with a working machine, and see how the components operate and interact, than dive straight into a non-working project. And maybe a single player game, since multi-player games have an added layer of interchanging between players. And, in most cases, absolutely no recall of achievements - you do it with one ball, or not at all. Flyers for the early Bally electronic games urge "Have your distributor demonstrate Bally's amazing Memory and Recall" because it was previously almost unknown for a multi-player game to do so.

It isn't accidental that there are so many cases of bell and chime sounds being substituted when an electronic pinball appears on screen. People on the production team have to do that.

Speaking of accidents, some games have features operated using the mains power, rather than the 25 to 50 or so volts usually used for the 'logic' side. Bally games with closing 'zipper' flippers, f'r instance, use a mains solenoid to close them. Gottlieb add-a-ball games have the coin switch in the mains side, with the only warning being a little sticker inside the metal door, and plastic insulated wires. And that door isn't (or wasn't originally) earthed.

@VeeMonroe, Gottlieb picked El Dorado and Jacks Open as two of the games they updated in solid-state format during the early 80's. Though in the case of the former, they'd used the layout plenty of times already, four I think.

* Complete the spell out H-O-T-L-I-N-E, one letter at a time, from a grid of rollover buttons. Carried over between games.
 
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