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Practice doesn’t make perfect

effkay

effkay

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Joined
Aug 30, 2022
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79
Location
London
… in fact, it seems I’m getting worse.

I’m a relative noob to playing pinball properly. Now, don’t think that means I’ve not played or not been interested. I had a Tomy Astro Shooter as a child, played lots of T2 and Adams in the early 90s when not playing SF2 in the arcades, and I’ve had access to pins for the last decade but never played seriously until the last couple of years.

I bought a BM66 for home, to really practice and get better. Initial plays where I couldn’t get a multi ball soon made way for regular 500m+ games and my high score sits at 3.7bn not using the Bookworm-Freeze route.

I joined PBR and go at least a couple of times a month and play as many games as I have time for. I watch videos on you tube and study play.

All in all, my skills, knowledge and understanding have surely come on leaps and bounds, however, my scores are getting worse and more inconsistent.

It feels like I’m now trying far too hard to catch the ball and play properly all the time and can’t even manage a 500m game on BM66 with any regularity. I was at PBR yesterday and left frustrated, with terrible games on all machines, no where near the standard I’m capable of. I seem to outlane drain and fumble the ball more than ever before through a combination of trying to get the ball under control and not fully understanding the nudge process around the slings. I also often fumble the ball with the flippers when trying to micro flip after a catch.

Is this something others have faced? A sort of feeling of being a better player but it’s not reflected in score? It’s very frustrating and it would be good to hear any experiences of this and how to push through.
 
"Practice makes permanent" - Terry Venables

He always argued that if you practice the wrong thing you'll engrain poor habits.

If it's any consolation though mate, I've got significantly worse at pinball.

Maybe give it a break for a bit? Don't stop playing but perhaps stop trying if that makes any sense?

We used to do precisely this with juggling when trying to learn a new trick or increase the number of balls being juggled. I could practice for hours each day and hit a wall with no improvement. But I remember getting fed up, not juggling for two weeks but when I returned I could suddenly perform that trick. Basically I'd been trying too hard.

My advice would be to fall back in love with the game, forget about the scores and try to get all 4 major villains in jail and forget about everything else. Forget multipliers and TV modes, keep it simple and I'm sure your skills will return along with your enjoyment.
 
I class myself as an average player, by the fact that my good to bad games ratio is 50/50. I can always play reasonably well at home, or when visiting one of the public places to play. But my achilles heel is tournaments, as soon as I have to play competitively, I just can’t play, I feel myself tense up, my skills disappear, and my aiming is totally off, it’s so frustrating and drives me mad.
 
effkay said:
… in fact, it seems I’m getting worse.

I’m a relative noob to playing pinball properly. Now, don’t think that means I’ve not played or not been interested. I had a Tomy Astro Shooter as a child, played lots of T2 and Adams in the early 90s when not playing SF2 in the arcades, and I’ve had access to pins for the last decade but never played seriously until the last couple of years.

I bought a BM66 for home, to really practice and get better. Initial plays where I couldn’t get a multi ball soon made way for regular 500m+ games and my high score sits at 3.7bn not using the Bookworm-Freeze route.

I joined PBR and go at least a couple of times a month and play as many games as I have time for. I watch videos on you tube and study play.

All in all, my skills, knowledge and understanding have surely come on leaps and bounds, however, my scores are getting worse and more inconsistent.

It feels like I’m now trying far too hard to catch the ball and play properly all the time and can’t even manage a 500m game on BM66 with any regularity. I was at PBR yesterday and left frustrated, with terrible games on all machines, no where near the standard I’m capable of. I seem to outlane drain and fumble the ball more than ever before through a combination of trying to get the ball under control and not fully understanding the nudge process around the slings. I also often fumble the ball with the flippers when trying to micro flip after a catch.

Is this something others have faced? A sort of feeling of being a better player but it’s not reflected in score? It’s very frustrating and it would be good to hear any experiences of this and how to push through.
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Yes, very similar experience. I also had a Tomy Astro Shooter as a child, but didn’t play a full-sized pinball machine until the pandemic.

We got a Fish Tales and my husband got us into playing league/tournaments at PBR quite quickly afterwards. We’d always had a problem with competitive gaming together in the past because he was playing card/board games decades before I was. Whereas, with pinball, we were both newbies at the same time.

PBR is a tough scene because everyone’s really good. I’ve spent hours watching videos on technique, IPFA rules tutorials… the works.

I had a period - exactly like you - of knowing consciously what I was supposed to be doing, but fumbling the ball because I was learning new techniques. My husband called it ‘being cute near the flippers’. He told me to just flip the ball away, which turned out to be bad advice. However, when I came back to playing in a more controlled way, I’d improved my game.

I have a completely different problem now, which I’ve jokingly described as ‘Schrodinger’s Pinball’. If no one’s watching me, I can get good scores. However, when I walk up to a new machine, I just panic. I just don’t seem able to play a decent single game. I’ve been playing a one game per machine at home for months now, but it doesn’t seem to help. Anyone who plays a first game with me recommends I watch basic technique videos but - on a second game with no observers - I’ll go through the replay.

It’s very strange and my husband thinks it’s sports psychology. As in, I have a self-fulfilling prophecy that I’m going to insta-drain.

The only positive thing I can say is that, having asked a lot of great tournament players how they got good, the advice mostly seems to be ‘start playing as a toddler’.

Also, you don’t need to be naturally chill or have lightning reflexes because Robert Gagno won the World Championships in 2016 and, having watched half the documentary about him (so far), he was an unexceptional video game player and evidently - like me - struggles to remain calm. His superpower seems to be some combination of autistic hyperfocus and, well, the time-honoured ’start playing aged 5’.

I can’t give any advice apart from that, except to say, if you’re a Londoner like me, it would be great to meet up for a game sometime to share frustrations - because, boy, am I frustrated :)

99BB8292-BAE0-47D0-9D17-1CFB4B198C41.jpeg
You do NOT want to know what my score was in a first two-player game with @C&C (about 100,000)… LOL.

But, of course, once everyone else cleared off away from the pinball machine… 🫣
 
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Thanks for the replies! Glad to hear I’m not the only one.

I really think it’s part of the process of getting better at pinball. I’m trying to do things that my actual skill level and understanding of the ball physics, reaction times and so on cannot keep pace with and then getting annoyed.

Interestingly, I had more poor games last night, over thinking and trying to catch the ball all the time.

Just had a quick game of BM66 as a break from emails and thought, no catching and insisting on being perfect, just play the game and look at the result!

IMG_0844.jpeg
 
I think I'm at a similar stage to you.
Mastered the basic elements of gameplay but in this weird limbo where I'm aware of the more complex techniques having watched some great players, so trying to incorporate them, but just can't seem to do so reliably yet, which leads to more drains and lower scores.

I think its just part of progressing, stuff like drop/live catches, tip pass, alley passes are all risky and require really precise timing so until your confident there's going to be a lot of drains.

Perhaps try adding one new technique at a time, when your comfortable you can pull it off reliably add another one?
 
kev a said:
I think I'm at a similar stage to you.
Mastered the basic elements of gameplay but in this weird limbo where I'm aware of the more complex techniques having watched some great players, so trying to incorporate them, but just can't seem to do so reliably yet, which leads to more drains and lower scores.

I think its just part of progressing, stuff like drop/live catches, tip pass, alley passes are all risky and require really precise timing so until your confident there's going to be a lot of drains.

Perhaps try adding one new technique at a time, when your comfortable you can pull it off reliably add another one?
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Yuck, I wouldn't try doing one at a time. Then, it's just going to be even more anxiety inducing trying *not* to do techniques that you've already learned 😲
 
I think a good way to go is to separate practicing skills from playing.

When you want to practice your skills, ignore score, progressing through the game etc and just concentrate on what you want to improve (live catching, post passing, ball cradling etc).

Then when you go back to just playing the game, don't approach with the mindset that you have to do these skills constantly. Use them when appropriate or when you need to and the basic skills will be better than before.

Either way, try and enjoy playing as much as you can. That's why we all ended up here!
 
Matt Vince said:
I think a good way to go is to separate practicing skills from playing.

When you want to practice your skills, ignore score, progressing through the game etc and just concentrate on what you want to improve (live catching, post passing, ball cradling etc).

Then when you go back to just playing the game, don't approach with the mindset that you have to do these skills constantly. Use them when appropriate or when you need to and the basic skills will be better than before.

Either way, try and enjoy playing as much as you can. That's why we all ended up here!
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@mattvince How do you deal with the 'SDTM with nothing to nudge off' and 'sudden dramatic outlane drain after a bricked shot' problems? I know it's shot accuracy, but I don't know how to be accurate on a pin where I haven't dialled in the shots.

I've practiced post passing, etc. until I'm blue in the face... but it doesn't seem to help with that. Harder nudging?
 
VeeMonroe said:
Yuck, I wouldn't try doing one at a time. Then, it's just going to be even more anxiety inducing trying *not* to do techniques that you've already learned 😲
Click to expand...

I was thinking more of adding one 'new' technique alongside existing play.
I find if I watch a stream, next game go all in trying to emulate what I have seen its just a bit overwhelming, just using this as an example....

Have recently started doing drop catches from the scoop return on my CSI, after a couple of weeks got pretty confident as its a consistent repeatable shot, now trying to build on that and drop catch on other fast ball returns.
 
VeeMonroe said:
@mattvince How do you deal with the 'SDTM with nothing to nudge off' and 'sudden dramatic outlane drain after a bricked shot' problems? I know it's shot accuracy, but I don't know how to be accurate on a pin where I haven't dialled in the shots.

I've practiced post passing, etc. until I'm blue in the face... but it doesn't seem to help with that. Harder nudging?
Click to expand...
Yup, slap save. Due to my lowly skill levels I’ve had to use that one a lot over the years. Slap one side, even both (fractionally apart) when you’re convinced it’s going stdm. You might even manage 2 if the tilt is generous.
 
effkay said:
… in fact, it seems I’m getting worse.

I’m a relative noob to playing pinball properly. Now, don’t think that means I’ve not played or not been interested. I had a Tomy Astro Shooter as a child, played lots of T2 and Adams in the early 90s when not playing SF2 in the arcades, and I’ve had access to pins for the last decade but never played seriously until the last couple of years.

I bought a BM66 for home, to really practice and get better. Initial plays where I couldn’t get a multi ball soon made way for regular 500m+ games and my high score sits at 3.7bn not using the Bookworm-Freeze route.

I joined PBR and go at least a couple of times a month and play as many games as I have time for. I watch videos on you tube and study play.

All in all, my skills, knowledge and understanding have surely come on leaps and bounds, however, my scores are getting worse and more inconsistent.

It feels like I’m now trying far too hard to catch the ball and play properly all the time and can’t even manage a 500m game on BM66 with any regularity. I was at PBR yesterday and left frustrated, with terrible games on all machines, no where near the standard I’m capable of. I seem to outlane drain and fumble the ball more than ever before through a combination of trying to get the ball under control and not fully understanding the nudge process around the slings. I also often fumble the ball with the flippers when trying to micro flip after a catch.

Is this something others have faced? A sort of feeling of being a better player but it’s not reflected in score? It’s very frustrating and it would be good to hear any experiences of this and how to push through.
Click to expand...
As others have said; everyone goes through it.
I think I can say it's also similar when playing a musical instrument; one day you are relaxed and really fly and other days you can over think and feel like you've hit a wall (which can be the case sometimes and you have to put some practice in; focus on certain aspects/skills as Matt V has said - Matt is an amazing pimball player/competetor and very consistent)

Sometimes you also have to take a break, or just not over think things, just play for fun.
I got an Elvira HOH last week and I was playing o.k, then managed to have an amazing game, scored a fairly huge score (for me anyway; 1.2 Billion) and saw loads of new modes; I was buzzing to say the least.
When I revisited the game here and there in subsequent days I started playing badly and questioned wether I'd peaqued (spelling) on the game.
Fast forward to Saturday evening (belated birthday party at home) and showing our neibours the game I was bang on it again and put up another good score. (Then once I started playing against others throughout the evening I was playing crap - pressure!... but I went to bed thinking how great the game was again, especially in a social environment)
Started slow again yesterday, playing badly, then things picked up again and it only took an incredibly tense Gappa Angry start (which I fluffed on the final lock...) to get me excited again.

Keep at it and don't feel bad for taking a break 👍🏻

Btw, Batman 66 is high on my list for the next pin I'd like at home; if you ever consider moving it on, let me know (could maybe work out a trade or something if Elvira interests you)
 
Interesting stuff. I think you are right, it’s all the process of becoming a better player. It’s tough and you will definitely get worse before you get better, undoubtedly. You can clearly play some decent pinball and have probably been playing in the same style for a long time, pretty on the fly, decent accuracy, but lacking control. You have watched some decent players play and like the idea of learning some new skills, fantastic.

It’s a long journey, you will need to unlearn some habits that you have always done, which will cause frustration and make you feel like you are getting worse. If I’m honest, most people give up and just stick to what they know and are content being a decent player and can smash out 2.5B on Batman when everything is going well. But you will plateau of course and there will always be a ceiling. Where as, if you keep going with the skills, you initially will get much worse, but incrementally you will get better over months of trying, until eventually you will get 2.5B playing that way.

And of course, then you will be able to really kick on and the sky is the limit in terms of score. It’s not for everyone though of course. I’m still trying to unlearn stuff and learn new skills after over 10 years of competitive play, it definitely gets harder as you get older, but for me all of this is incredibly fun, in a sick way I love the frustration of struggling and failing until eventually that skill gets learned and then becomes second nature and just part of the way I play.

Good stuff 😊
 
Great thread. Things are starting to make sense. I play so many games on TNA then realise i’m not actually that present in my mind and just playing without really thinking. When i focus and pause, i get somewhere into the game and that’s when i really start to enjoy it
I got frustrated yesterday and played Co-oP 4 player. My score was less than what i can get 1 player but i did manage to open up reactor 7

i’ll try M Vince suggestion to practice shots without also trying to play the game. I really would like to nail the dead catch, that would change everything
Recently i got a high score on GZ similar to your BM. I remember approaching the game, thinking i want to get somewhere today. I had a warm up game then went for it. But then i walked away because i knew i couldn’t replicate a good game again for a while

I’m starting to nudge a lot. Mainly pushing up so the ball bounces and then nudge again to alter the direction. Never tried the slap, i thought it was for dramatic effect…
 
SeikoKid said:
then realise i’m not actually that present in my mind and just playing without really thinking.
Click to expand...
Thats my approach to pinball. To me a machine should "lead" me to where i should be going next - i shouldnt need to read rulesets etc.
Unfortunately - you do if you expect to go for the high scores, which are what is needed for tournament and matchplay.

Probably why i dont do very well at those. On the flip side though, i do tend to have a great time... which to me is what Pinball is all about :D
 
SeikoKid said:
i’ll try M Vince suggestion to practice shots without also trying to play the game. I really would like to nail the dead catch, that would change everything
Recently i got a high score on GZ similar to your BM. I remember approaching the game, thinking i want to get somewhere today. I had a warm up game then went for it. But then i walked away because i knew i couldn’t replicate a good game again for a while
Click to expand...
Drop catching on TNA is very hard to do repeatedly when trying to get the ball under control as it comes out ridiculously fast from the scoop, but is also a brilliant way to learn how to drop catch. I think that repeatedly practising this, accurately hitting BOTH orbits (later reactors require you to hit the lesser used right orbit), and backhanding the lock shot from the right flipper are three of the key skills in doing well on it.
 
Matt Vince said:
I think a good way to go is to separate practicing skills from playing.

When you want to practice your skills, ignore score, progressing through the game etc and just concentrate on what you want to improve (live catching, post passing, ball cradling etc).

Then when you go back to just playing the game, don't approach with the mindset that you have to do these skills constantly. Use them when appropriate or when you need to and the basic skills will be better than before.

Either way, try and enjoy playing as much as you can. That's why we all ended up here!
Click to expand...
I think this is great advice, and was discussing exactly this with @VeeMonroe the other day at the Excel. Unfortunately it's very counter-intuitive, as once the first ball is plunged, it's so tempting to try to play the game, rather than tell yourself to totally forget about the score, be happy with draining the ball repeatedly as you try a particular technique, and just play game after game concentrating on that specific skill. I'm certainly not the most disciplined, and need to do this a lot more than I do, but it does produce results, and you'll then find yourself automatically using the newly learned skills when playing normally, without really thinking about it - I guess it eventually embeds in your sub-conscious or something.

Interesting thread! 👍

Edit - the other thing about this is that when you do then start using your new skill in "normal" play, this acts as more practice, so you then start to further improve that skill each time you play without even thinking about it, even if you're just playing for fun rather than a "dedicated" practice session.
 
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I sometimes just take the glass off and block the trough with a tea towel and try lobbing the ball into difficult positions and practice getting out of them. Nowhere near as much fun as a proper game though, and my wife always complains about the noise. After spending hours playing VR table tennis against a robot that you can set to play the same shot repeatedly, and learning how to hit a forehand topspin smash, it would be great (though probably completely impractical) to have a gizmo with a hopper of balls that repeatedly fired the ball wherever you wanted.
 
StandUpAndFight said:
After spending hours playing VR table tennis against a robot that you can set to play the same shot repeatedly, and learning how to hit a forehand topspin smash, it would be great (though probably completely impractical) to have a gizmo with a hopper of balls that repeatedly fired the ball wherever you wanted.
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Apologies for going off-topic with a bunch of questions, but the VR table tennis bit is really interesting (to me as a newish bottom-division player trying to improve).

Has extended practice on VR made a big difference to your real-life game?
How realistic is it for a variety of other shots - sidespin, backspin, push, loop etc..?
As well as repeated shots, does your VR opponent also allow you to play virtual matches, and how good is this?
What is the setup you use to play this on (and if you don't mind, what sort of cost)?
Finally, as well as shakehand, does it also support/emulate penhold play (as I'm a penholder)?

Many thanks for any info, as it's something I wasn't aware of, and may be a better alternative to spending a fair bit on an actual robot, which I've been considering in addition to regular club training and league matches!
 
C&C said:
Apologies for going off-topic with a bunch of questions, but the VR table tennis bit is really interesting (to me as a newish bottom-division player trying to improve).

Has extended practice on VR made a big difference to your real-life game?
How realistic is it for a variety of other shots - sidespin, backspin, push, loop etc..?
As well as repeated shots, does your VR opponent also allow you to play virtual matches, and how good is this?
What is the setup you use to play this on (and if you don't mind, what sort of cost)?
Finally, as well as shakehand, does it also support/emulate penhold play (as I'm a penholder)?

Many thanks for any info, as it's something I wasn't aware of, and may be a better alternative to spending a fair bit on an actual robot, which I've been considering in addition to regular club training and league matches!
Click to expand...
I'm a very occasional TT player of doubtful quality, and haven't played IRL since my VR experience, so whether I have actually improved or not, it's very difficult to say.

That said, I have found it very immersive and I forget that I am not playing for real. IRL I tend to hit the ball with a lot of side spin on the backhand side so my shots swerve right-to-left, and this was picked up exactly by the simulation. There are some reviews on the store from a guy who claims he was previously an Olympic player, and he says it is the closest to real life he has found.

As well as playing against a ball machine, you can play against VR opponents of varying skill levels, and against real opponents, though I haven't tried that. There are some training games etc as well.

Equipment - I have an Oculus Quest 3 (£499), but it is probably almost as good on the Quest 2 (about half that), software is Eleven Table Tennis about £20 or less.

It does support penhold, and you can buy attachments that look like rackets and it will make adjustments to the point of contact to suit. Not tried any of this.

Happy to bring along for you to have a go next time our paths cross. You need a bit of space, small room size to have a good swing!
 
StandUpAndFight said:
[Lots of interesting and helpful stuff]

Happy to bring along for you to have a go next time our paths cross. You need a bit of space, small room size to have a good swing!
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for the info.

I'm at Claire and David's comp on 10th of Feb, and notice you're on the player list also. If you could bring it along that would be really great.

I'd already been kind of thinking about a Quest - I have an original PS VR, and found it interesting although a bit limited, but the Table Tennis, if it's as good as it sounds may well be enough justification on its own for a Q3 (well, in my head anyway)!

Many thanks! 👍
 
C&C said:
Thank you so much for the info.

I'm at Claire and David's comp on 10th of Feb, and notice you're on the player list also. If you could bring it along that would be really great.

I'd already been kind of thinking about a Quest - I have an original PS VR, and found it interesting although a bit limited, but the Table Tennis, if it's as good as it sounds may well be enough justification on its own for a Q3 (well, in my head anyway)!

Many thanks! 👍
Click to expand...

You're both attending the league the following weekend too😉
 
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