How important are WPPR points to you?

[Wayne J]

I ask this question in light of the fact that players at Wimbledon will not receive any ranking points, some say they won't enter, others don't give a stuff about the points.

Andy Murray says Wimbledon will never be an exhibition, even without ranking points

Andy Murray says Wimbledon will "never feel like an exhibition" despite it being stripped of ranking points.

www.bbc.co.uk

There are constant questions about, how many WPPRs is this tournament worth, will it grade out to 100% TGP, etc. etc.

From my point of view, I used to care about WPPRs until I came to the realisation that firstly no-one cares, and secondly it's an uneven playing field if you can't compete in the bigger competitions across Europe or the US. I simply don't have the time or the funds to enter every competition I'd like to. The fact that a competition is worth little to no pts is irrelevant to me, just ask anyone at Electric Circus how keenly everyone battled to qualify for the High Score comp final last night, worth a massive 0.24pts in April?

The question is, would you not attend a comp if it wasn't worth big WPPR pts?

 

[strobey]

It's all relative though. 0.24 won't get you world recognition but it will help you get towards a UK top 100 spot.

People need to just readjust their ambitions and most importantly just enjoy it.

 

[David_Vi]

I struggle to explain why I like the pts but don't play solely for them.

I play because it's fun but I find it satisfying to see my position change in the UK ranking. It adds a bit of a goal and way of measuring my improvement. It's fun as I know more than half the players in the UK top 100 so it adds the possibility for friendly banter

I don't expect nor want to be a top 10, or even 20 player, I haven't got the dedication to learn games.

 

[roadshow16]

I have been through a similar journey. At one point they were one of, if not the biggest reason for me playing, wanting to get as high up in the world rankings as possible.

After playing for a number of years and understanding how good I was, that became less and less important. Other than for qualifying for the world championship, that is an important factor for me, so being in the top 2 UK players, esspecially on a year when it's in Europe, is important. So points are important for that reason for me.

But for me now, the biggest thing is the quality of the tournament. I'm only going to be able to make it to a few tournaments a year, so for me I want them to be the best tournaments they can be. With the best players in attendance. And I think that the IFPA grading system does do a good job in ranking how good a tournament is, ie. If it's 100% in value, it's a long tournament, where I will play a lot of games and have lots of opportunity of playing against excellent players. That's what is important to me. I won't be travelling for a tournament where I only play a few games and it's all over. The fact that the points are linked to the quality of the tournament is a small added bonus. But not really important to me.

If time and money were no object, I would travel far and wide if I could, to play against the best in the world in tournaments where I have lots of chance to play against the best, with points or without.

 

[Epotech]

At the beginning where tournaments were worth 25 points with the european open and the Finals worth double it was worth it. Now, IFPA have ruined tournament play for me and I won't bother entering. Too much maximizing points by playing pointless and endless games and the self fullfilling playing better players policy that means any USA tournament is instantly worth more than any other.
All needs throwing in the bin. I do have a different plan involving a handicap system similar to golf.

 

[Wizcat]

I've said 'it's important' but it might need qualifying.

I've thought for a long time that the best in the UK are significantly under-represented in the world rankings. And it's a difficult hole to dig ourselves out of. If low ranked players are competing with other low ranked players then the end result is barely moving the needle

To dig ourselves out of this hole we need a few things:
- We need the best players to travel to big (international) tournaments and do well enough to significantly improve their ranking.
- Then those same players need to play in UK tournaments to boost the overall value of that tournament
- And those tournaments need to be well attended to help spread the benefit of well ranked players amongst the other competitors.

Another similar approach would be to have large tournaments of good enough quality to attract well ranked players from overseas, then rinse and repeat steps 2 and 3 to redistribute their points amongst the UK players
It's a bit of a grind, but it's the only way to improve the overall ranking of the UK playerbase as a whole.

All of this is only significant if you give two hoots about rankings of course I accept that a good number (probably even the majority) don't, and only play for fun and the social aspects. But there's no good reason why any decent competition couldn't also be a ranking competition and meet the needs for both groups.

*Edit: The use of 'ourselves' throughout that post is meant in the royal sense, and not at all in the sense that I consider myself anywhere near the best in the UK I just want to see some talented UK players get the recognition they deserve.

 

[strobey]

If you're entering a tourny i would encourage everyone to care about WPPR points.

Don't fall into the trap of "ill never make it therefore i don't care".

Improving from UK 400th to 300th is a surprisingly great feeling. Keep it as a personal best to see how you're doing year-on-year.

 

[windoesnot]

Personally, while I enjoy taking part in comps, WPPR points mean absolutely nothing to me. I can see why others value them and will construct comp formats to maximise them but I would personally never value one comp over another based on how many points it’s worth.

The only time it has ever directly effected me was the Pinburgh first round seeding / grouping.

It’s much more important to enjoy yourself than worry about what points you’ll get from finishing in whatever position.

 

[roadshow16]

Another similar approach would be to have large tournaments of good enough quality to attract well ranked players from overseas, then rinse and repeat steps 2 and 3 to redistribute their points amongst the UK players
It's a bit of a grind, but it's the only way to improve the overall ranking of the UK playerbase as a whole.

I guess this is what I have always hoped for and have always massively appreciated those who have put on the larger tournaments that attract big name players from the rest of the world to travel to the UK. I see what is happening in Fulda and cant help but be envious of what they have created there. Not for the number of WPPR points on offer, but for the number of opportunities to play against the best.

Its very exciting what Neil is doing with the UK Open, I really hope it all works out and we can get a big turnout and keep growing the tournament scene.

I think we will get some Europeans travelling for Pinfest too which will be awesome. I do think that points are a major factor though in attracting the best players and having a number of 100% TGP tournaments throughout a weekend has become the way of incentivising players. That or big cash prizes, or preferably both. But in my opinion you guys have the balance right for Pinfest, as the tournament is an addition to the show, the tournament is a fantastic addition and does exactly what it needs to do, promote competitive pinball in a really positive way.

I just want to see some talented UK players get the recognition they deserve.

Fingers crossed we may see that this weekend

 

[johnwhitfield]

Couldn’t really care less.
I like playing against people and occasionally winning but I wouldn’t bother comparing myself to someone I’ve never met.
But if someone enjoys it then good for them. It doesn’t detract from my fun.

What I do dislike is the idea of tournaments when you keep paying for more and more games to ensure you qualify. It’s enough for me not to bother.

 

[replicas]

Play for fun, enjoy playing with your mates over a beer or two .
Points , don't give two hoots. Don't get to serious that's when the fun stops.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

Play for fun, enjoy playing with your mates over a beer or two .
Points , don't give two hoots. Don't get to serious that's when the fun stops.

This

Seeing people have hissy fits over what is a big toy is just hilarious. Spoiler alert - it’s not an Olympic sport , there’s some skill but don’t get carried away … you are knocking a ball bearing around a plank of wood

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I love how the biggest vote has almost as many players who don’t go to events at all!

bring on the points!

or don’t - and be safe in the knowledge that the events you are at will never trouble you for real competition!

the key thing is that it’s simple to construct a competition that delivers points and you never need to make a choice. No measurement system is perfect but the IFPA system has 100% brought huge growth to tournament play, and it’s not true to say the US has an advantage look at Sweden…

Seeing people have hissy fits over what is a big toy is just hilarious. Spoiler alert - it’s not an Olympic sport , there’s some skill but don’t get carried away … you are knocking a ball bearing around a plank of wood

for some they can live happily in their minimal effort and ambition world - I personally tend to disagree having seen some of the best players show that it’s not just some skill but it is infact a huge delta between good and great And seeing the greats when in a final they bring even more skill in a top competition is inspiring. Last week seeing Andrei score more in a final heat on a game than the top qualifying score was fantastic. Jim Belsito‘s play at INDISC whlist running the event, fixing games and dealing with rulings was just mind blowing and Zach M winning the world championship at 16 because he outplayed the competition beautifully, Keith Elwin come back at Pinburgh in Guardians, and Keith comeback from almost a billion points down against Cayle at expo - just staggering. Johannes world championship win in Italy on BSD amazing, dont know how anyone can’t be excited by that if you love the challenge of beating the machine!

Neil.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

I love how the biggest vote has almost as many players who don’t go to events at all!

Not now but been there done it - did the Uk League when it started 15 years ago for the first 4 maybe 5 seasons . Hosted meets, did tourneys at the UK shows, as I’m sure did many of the others.
Enjoyed those for a while … didn’t enjoy bigger tourneys like EPC when witnessing grown men taking it way too seriously in meltdown / near tears At that point I thought this is a bit silly and decided it wasn’t really my bag baby

You have a point though I prob shouldn’t have voted as have zero interest in competitive play these days, and my show / event days are in the past.

I certainly admire the skill of top players.

 

[Epotech]

Confusing doesn't play in with retired from. My highest ifpa ranking was 103.

 

[Paul]

for some they can live happily in their minimal effort and ambition world

Yup - Thats me - Minimal effort and minimal ambition......

Nothing to do with the premise that WPPR points have been dicked about so much over recent years....

Do like a good competition, however i just dont get the time to be able to hare off around the country unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Confusing doesn't play in with retired from. My highest ifpa ranking was 103.

yeah but that was in the before times when pinballs still burned candles for GI


(Just kidding!)

Neil.

 

[AndyB]

I've only entered a few tournaments and play in the Midlands league, but for me the main reason is to test myself against others not for points. I don't currently own a machine so the best way for me to improve is to play against those with a higher skill level than myself.
Maybe in the future I'll be at a level where I have an opportunity to go to some of the more prestigious tournaments where your ranking is important, but for now it's about the fun, social, and improvement side.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

and enjoying what you are playing is crucial.

 

[Wayne J]

This was somewhat of a leading question.

I knew full well that many people who don't enter any competitions, be it smaller or larger comps , would respond saying that they didn't care about the points. (I also think that some of the people who say that they don't care about pts aren't necessarily being entirely honest with their answer based on previous interactions with them )

As much as anything else it was to gauge as to if people felt it was necessary to change the format of the UK Pinball League, as from next year the points will be vastly reduced for the top finishers (and completely removed for everyone who doesn't make the finals) due to the changes that IFPA have made this year.

Having discussed it with the other regional co-ordinators, the prevailing thoughts are that we shouldn't change the format, just to get more points for the 'top' players, especially as the League is an ideal introduction to friendly competition for the vast majority of new players and should be predominately be seen as a social event with competition, with the added prestige of the trophy and title at the end of it.

There's also thoughts about trying to push the Pinfest comp to be a 'validated' comp by the IFPA bringing with it additional pts for 2023. Would this actually increase the entrants to the comp for all of the additional time and effort required, or could it actually put some people off entering?

 

[Epotech]

Pinfest comp

Here's the thing mate. I go to pinfest to a show. It was nice when I could spend a few hours in a comp but it's now spread over at least 2 days (yes, I COULD qualify on the Sunday if I wanted to spend all the time in a comp again).
For a dedicated competition such as put on by Neil, fair enough, go for it. For a show with a tourney, nah.

 

[DanLewell]

Voted that I'd don't care about the points, because I rarely (if ever) know how many points a comp will be worth before I enter, so it doesn't influence my decision to go or not.

But, I do care about the cheap plastic trophy that I might one day pick up for winning!! And care even more about beautiful hand crafted trophies like the ones that are available this weekend at David and Claire's. so fingers crossed I'll be picking one of those up.

I enter as many comps as I can get to, competitive pinball is my only hobby really, and I think the ranking points are important, it is good to judge where you are compared to others, even if it is skewed by me going to 100 comps a year.

BUT, do the points make the comp more (or less) fun. No, they don't make a difference at all.
We had the best time at the inter club championship when there were no points to be seen.

 

[DRD]

I don't care about the points. I would rather they did not exist but they do.

What gets measured gets done. The damned things exist so you have to work with that system

Seems perfectly sensible to keep the league as a pleasant/ social/ welcoming scene that appeals to the social players/ newbies/ folk that just like an afternoon of pinball.

But then structure a number of tournaments to maximize points for those who do care about them.

Have a few frenzies that are one day tournaments with a winner but plenty of play for all the attendees as a hybrid

 

[thelab]

Voted that I'd don't care about the points, because I rarely (if ever) know how many points a comp will be worth before I enter, so it doesn't influence my decision to go or not.

But, I do care about the cheap plastic trophy that I might one day pick up for winning!! And care even more about beautiful hand crafted trophies like the ones that are available this weekend at David and Claire's. so fingers crossed I'll be picking one of those up.

I enter as many comps as I can get to, competitive pinball is my only hobby really, and I think the ranking points are important, it is good to judge where you are compared to others, even if it is skewed by me going to 100 comps a year.

BUT, do the points make the comp more (or less) fun. No, they don't make a difference at all.
We had the best time at the inter club championship when there were no points to be seen.

Man, your girls must have waaaaaaay more trophies than you now

 

[Wizcat]

Seems perfectly sensible to keep the league as a pleasant/ social/ welcoming scene that appeals to the social players/ newbies/ folk that just like an afternoon of pinball.

But then structure a number of tournaments to maximize points for those who do care about them.

I broadly agree with this, but the issue (or potential issue) is that as more tournaments start appearing on the calendar - where will the players go?

If there's a date clash for example and one or more players are tempted away from the league event and towards the comp instead (which may offer cash, trophies or at least wppr points) - then it reduces the potential for socialising. If that happens frequently enough then it all but kills the league. Some of the bigger leagues could probably handle date clashes and losing a few players, but the more fringe league meets could be really badly affected.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I will definitely run an alternative event on every league weekend if the league doesn't generate points, then the players can decide!

Neil.

 

[DRD]

The league only requires 7 dates a year. That leaves over 90 weekend days for other events.
Surely this can be coordinated without clashes.

The UK league dates could be selected for the next ten or indeed 100 years this afternoon if someone chose to do it.

For example

Third Sunday of Jan, Feb, Mar, April, May and June. If that lands on a bank holiday move back a week.

Final third Sunday of whatever other month you fancy

 

[Wizcat]

Date clashes alone might not matter. If there was an event every weekend I might have to decide which event/s I'm going to bother going to that month.

Do I pick the friendly and sociable league meet, or the friendly and sociable comp, with bonus trophy/cash/wppr opportunities.

 

[Jackpot]

I actually find the matchplay tournaments more sociable, when there are random 4 player matches it gives easy opportunities to meet a whole bunch of new people and chat. Or in a flip frenzy you play so many games - again it is very easy to chat to whoever you are playing against.

At the recent PBR weekender we had 20-30 people watching the epic Twilight Zone match between Rich and Dave and cheering everyone on, it was amazing to see. It is obviously great to see everyone at the SE and London league and I'm very thankful for those who host and put these events on, but for me playing 5 games and submitting scores as a format isn't as fun or interactive as the other competition formats. It is all over too quickly as well

(I understand we are limited somewhat in what we can do due to the high turnout in our region)

 

[Matt Vince]

I changed my vote to 'yes' but although I do look to see how many points I get from an event, it isn't the only reason I attend them. I think there is room for both casual/social events and more serious competition.

I do however feel that not having a full comp at the years biggest event is a missed opportunity. There are already 'fun' comps such as the Stall Ball and NBA battle and the social side of things are taken care of over the 4 days.