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eBay

jonathan

jonathan

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10 Years
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Jul 21, 2011
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Is terrible when it comes to buying pinballs these days. It used to be that there was always a good cross section of games from CCs, TAFGs and newer Sterns at the £3-4k mark, to TZs, TAFs, CVs etc at the £1-2k mark and a whole smattering of other pins to pick and choose from at £300+

Fast forward 3 years and you have FTs, JDs, FHs and Flinstones listed at £2k and if you are lucky enough to find a top 20 pin on eBay it's for 3 x what it's worth

I only got into pinball 4 years ago and worked my way up through the following adding a bit of cash to each pin to move up the ladder

LW3 £350
WH2O £600
TAF £900
TZ £1200
SM £1800

There's no hope of people doing the same thing these days
 
jonathan said:
Fast forward 3 years and you have FTs, JDs, FHs and Flinstones listed at £2k and if you are lucky enough to find a top 20 pin on eBay it's for 3 x what it's worth
Click to expand...

If that is the price that the games sell for then it is not 3 x what it is worth. Surely worth is determined by what buyers are prepared to pay. There is no other way to gauge value on a pinball machine.

Yes, prices have shot up over the last couple of years. But that's just tough sadly. But people can still climb the ladder. You can still buy a LW3 for £600-£800, play it for a while and then sell it. Add another couple of hundred and you could buy a Shadow or Fish Tales or Road Show etc. The main difference is that your initial purchase will be more that it would have been 3 years ago.

Pin ownership is certainly not a poor man's hobby.
 
You have to ignore anything with high starts ...they invariably don't find a buyer.

That is the problem now with pin sales on ebay - too many people taking the pi$$ with pricing, hoping to snag someone desperate enough :(

Only results that'matter' are auctions with reasonably low/99p start and run the course. Yes prices have increased but many DMDs finish at below 1K despite people repeatedly saying you cant find a dmd game for under 1K. Recently an ok FT ended at £770. Its a complete lottery though, especially as condition appears to play little part - a FT a few days before went to 1100+

There is a Roadshow that has been on there for weeks at 1200ish. Not sold ....that tells a story ....its not 'worth' 1200 .....its probably more like a 1K game. Which isn't much more than they have been for years. I remember being offered one years ago for 750/800 ish.
 
That roadshow also has really bad wear on the pf to. I was tempted by the blackrose but I don't wanna impulse buy my first lol
 
eBay is almost a mugs game now. It's too hard to pick out the legits amongst all the scammers, and the prices are not only way, way too high, but are always used as examples of how much a game is worth, regardless of whether it sells or not

"These go for 1600 on eBay etc etc"

Annoyingly, it only takes one sale at these inane prices by some guy with more money than sense for people to then see that price as "written in stone".

on top of the fees and final listing values, the bad photos and lack of after sale support. It's a no go for me.

as Jonathan stated in the first post, first time buyers are generally f*cked unless they can get out there, make contacts, and get lucky.
eBay is the spearhead of the current "All Dmd games are worth 1500" way of thinking.
 
Its certainly a shame. I used to get at least a couple of machines a year with no regard to what i spent on them. I dont even bother now unless its something truly special that i feel is worth spending a large sum on. All thanks to ebay.

I didnt even used to care too much about condition and costs, only if i could play the thing to death. Times moves on and i had to tell the missus to stab me in the eyes until dead should i turn into a crotch wetting collector that dribbles on his mint unplayed examples...
 
I don't think this is exclusive to pins. I think this has happened to many other hobbies or items that would previously have been a little difficult to track down. E bay caters for the consumer in all of us where virtually anything is only a click away and of course the competitive nature of "winning" an auction when in essence that means you were willing to pay more than any one else. Plus there's the added factor of shill bidding. I suppose it's just like anything else e bay will find the current market value for you, fine if you're sitting on a few or leaving the hobby but if you're looking to move up it's just like cars and it's the price to change that matters in the end. E bay makes everything more accessible and easier for people to find, purchase and move on when it's knackered.and.they're sick of it.
 
Actually just thinking about it....except for the £200 BIN WH20 :smokin:,the last pinball machine I 'won' in an ebay auction was back in 2007 ! Since then every machine has come thru pinball contacts, UK Pinball, or just blind good luck.

Considering that interest in home pinball ownership has increased considerably in the last 5 years it really is no surprise that 'bargains' or even 'sensible' prices are becoming fewer and fewer on ebay - its the single biggest shop window, and you are effectively in competition with thousands of other interested parties. Good luck needed indeed.
 
While I won't deny prices have shot up there are still some decent-ish deals on ebay. In the last 6 months I bought a SST for £600 and FS for just over £900. While both were higher priced than five years ago I wouldn't say astronomically so.

Playing devils advocate, take a look at Pinpedia for STTNG (used simply as it's a common machine and one I keep a bit of a weather eye on as I've got one). The vast majority of sales in the last 12 months were for less than £1200, Maybe £250 more than the "going" rate 3/4 years ago. Compare this to the offered rates on group. £500 less?

This isn't designed as a personal go at anyone who's recently put one up for sale but blaming ebay for higher prices isn't really the issue. Perhaps ebay with a low starting price is actually a far better guide to "real" prices than some of the deals we see here. How many of us would willingly sell machines below the going rate? For eg Jon, if you still had your Totan wouldn't you expect more than 2k now? (figure plucked out of the air) God knows I wouldn't consider selling my TAF for the £1200 I paid for it?

Demand has risen dramatically. An effect of shows, leagues etc. Also, lets face it, the demographic is getting older. One good thing about getting older is that people tend too have their own place, so buying machines is more viable (8 years ago I was in a small flat, so simply couldn't fit a machine in).

Would an increase in supply cause prices to drop? I'm not 100% certain. WOZ, Predator, Full Throttle are all due out this year but I can't see this causing prices to drop. How many people have bought a WOZLE with an eye on it's value increasing? I'm down for my first NIB this year. Partly this decision was made due to the far smaller differential in prices between old machines and brand new ones.

Would more machines on location drive down prices? Being really cynical I think it would actually add to the problem! (At least until the ops started to sell) More machines = more awareness = more demand. Beer is knocking on £4 a pint if I go out near work (If I go to Anna's work it's £5:help:! - oh the joys of London). An average night out going to be £50 - £100 by the time you factor in food and transport (more if we hire a babysitter). Result - I don't go out much and would rather buy drinks from a supermarket and spend the "savings" on another machine.

The big problem for me is higher prices are causing me not to let go of machines as the idea of paying far more in the future to buy it back is very unappealing. If enough people are in the same situation this further restricts supply and we're in a catch 22 situation
 
So of the eBay sellers don't help themselves either wether it's just stupidity or because their scamming I don't know. For example have you seen the Frankenstein on there atm? Really poor quality and shaky pics you cant make out anything quite cheap tho. Now I politely asked if he could put more pictures up and his reply was "no I don't have anymore pics, but it's in excellent condition". To much trouble for him to take a couple pics or hiding something? That's me not interested (not sure I would actually buy a frank anyway). So much dodgyness on eBay at times you can't trust anyone
 
Tbf, not that I'm ever planning on selling it, but I would expect to lose money on Woz rather than make it. The only 2nd hand pin I've seen make over £6.5k is BBB and that's for obvious reasons
 
I'm not necessarily blaming eBay for high prices. But it's the main source of supplying THE MYTH of how much a game is worth.
Theres a world of difference between selling your game for a good price and selling your game for a price you've seen it advertised on an American eBay auction, regardless of whether it *even sold* at that price.

Regardless, I'm not ripping on eBay per se, it's just greedy sellers and their oh so precious ideals about never losing a penny or, god forbid, losing pride at the idea someone might buy their game for 10% less than what "it's worth" a complete misnomer anyway consider worth is relative.

"Hey Guys! Lets keep pinball alive! (as long as it doesn't cost me any money and I can profit out of my sales)"

I know I'm probably about the most soapbox person there is in the community, but I dont take issue with that as I think it's a good cause and I believe in it. I don't buy into this idea that you own a machine as a "safe 1600" that you can sell down the line when you need the cash, assuming, or even DEMANDING, that you will make your money back (all add on costs included), or make fat profit, all whilst wringing your hands on the state of the market and pretending to be passionate about the hobby.

It warms my loins to see such offers as Matts LW3 for £600 or a friend who got a FT recently for less than 500, that Dr Dude that sold here cheap the other week and such.
I have one machine, someone picked it up, fixed everything, at cost to them, them sold it to me AT THE SAME PRICE they bought it for. This person is known to many of you, and it meant he sold it at a loss, but he did it *just because* he didn't feel the need to profit, or in this extreme case, to even make his money back.
He did it to help out a first time buyer who didn't have money to burn, just because it was a cool thing to do.

On the other side of the coin, I had the embarrassment of putting a friend onto a game that was £1000 last week, only to find out that when he called the seller, the guy told him to make an offer and see if he "wins", THEN decided he just wanted 2 grand straight.
so he'd raised his price 100% in 4 days. Just because.

Good prices or GTFO.
It's a free country, and you're free to sell at your own prices.
But that also means we're free to call you on your bs as we like.

None of this is particularly aimed at anyone here, and I hope I'm merely preaching to the converted. But it just grinds my gears, I'm passionate about pinball mang, whaddya want from me? :D


Right, I'm off for my third cup of coffee this morning ;) have a grand day all y'all.
 
OrochiLeona said:
On the other side of the coin, I had the embarrassment of putting a friend onto a game that was £1000 last week, only to find out that when he called the seller, the guy told him to make an offer and see if he "wins", THEN decided he just wanted 2 grand straight.
so he'd raised his price 100% in 4 days. Just because.
Click to expand...


This has to be that Dracula on Gumtree that started at £1000, then suddenly went up to £1500 and now is priced at £2000!

WTF is that all about?
 
A few years ago I bought some bank shares as the prices looked good. They crashed shortly after and despite a few blips are now worth 91% of what I paid for them. If I sell I make a loss, if I hold onto them I might be lucky. No point in selling unless I really needed the money and I will have to take whatever price they sell for. If they did go up to a point where I could see 25% profit then I would sell, to buy a few pinball machines.
I did buy the shares as a way to make some cash and other than that, they give me no pleasure at all.


Switch to Pinball, I enjoy playing them and that is the value I get. My first was bought at too high a price because I was a wet novice and TAF's were going for a pretty price. I don't intend to part with it so any offer to sell would have to be attractive and allow me to get something else.
CFTBL has had a shop which gave me a challenge and a few parts have been bought along the way but I don't see it being worth more than I paid for it.
I don't see pinball as investments, as a way to make some money but if I needed the money I would hope to get a good price for them.


The moment a machine is sold at a high price, it becomes worth that price to at least one person. Maybe the new buyers with too much money will run out but as the supply of machines is not increasing, and more are being hordes by us lot, then I am not sure we won't see more people with money, buying them up, purely to make money on the sale of them.


There is an apparent top condition TAF being sold on the yahoo forum for £4600. I don't knock the person selling but that is a high price from inside the community. I expect it comes from the amount of money he has spent replacing all the listed parts, plus his time. Why would he part with it for a loss unless he actually really has to?
 
People who buy machines do it for a variety of reasons. For me it's all about playing them (all be it badly). I enjoy mending them to a certain extent but on an emergency basis rather than as a project. Others though do buy as an investment. Personally I'd invest in gold as it's a damn site easier to store and transport. (Actually thinking about the cost of machines maybe a 2nd property is the way to go instead)

The mind set I really don't get is the "buy it and never play it in case it reduces the value" view. Every time I see adverts with "less than 200 plays" etc it baffles me a bit. Seems like buying a car and never driving it or putting a picture into storage rather than displaying it. Even my worst machine got played on a regular basis. Never really bonded with Stargate and lost a bit of cash on it after the cost of repairs when I sold it on but at least I enjoyed it for a while, so I still feel like I came out on top.
 
Fintan Stack said:
This has to be that Dracula on Gumtree that started at £1000, then suddenly went up to £1500 and now is priced at £2000!

WTF is that all about?
Click to expand...

LOL. I had to laugh at that one. Looked like a good deal at first, but quickly realised the seller was a tosser as the price went up. Greedy people get no time from me.
 
Rus121 said:
LOL. I had to laugh at that one. Looked like a good deal at first, but quickly realised the seller was a tosser as the price went up. Greedy people get no time from me.
Click to expand...

Same here. I thought it was a great deal at £1000 becuase it looked really nice. But it was a weird ad. Actually, I think the price was £1100 but the ad said 'Offers over £1000.' This was enough to put me off anyway as I hate that whole 'offers over' thing. Damn it man! How much is it?!
 
I hate it when you put up a low price for something (which is nearly always at a loss). And you still get people offering you half the price! Had this loads the last few weeks trying to shift my gear
 
Don't forget people , We are merely the custodian's for these beautiful machines. To pass them on to future generations to love and enjoy as we have done.
 
Just spotted PP have put up a TOM for £3k with make an offer. Almost priced realistically, makes me dubious!

Also a LOTR for £2999 and a Shadow at £1350 both close to my house.

Makes a change
 
Depends on which EBay you look at. I as do many members on here have also signed up to pinside/rgp pinball/pinball owners.com, and look at Pinpedia,

Prices for pins in the US are more extreme for A list titles.
Back on release a MM,AFM would cost $3000- £1500-£1800 back then. TAF was $2400 IIRC,
now TAFs are going for $4800 on EBay, MM for $12000-$15000 that is mad considering they made them over there! Supply& Demand,

EBay prices in Germany seem more reasonable, €700 for a FH, TAFs are around £1800. No import tax and shipping is good recently I have bought 2 pins from Germany, DH & TAFG £4500 for both inc shipping. If that was over here that's what a TAFG would have cost and more. NOT including Jons BARGAIN TAFG a while back which he then sold on for more than what I paid for two games in good condition. Both were advertised on eBay Germany DH paid on ebay & TAFG off.

A few others on here have also imported pins from Italy, Croatia, Netherlands,Denmark. With shipping prices being £40 more than it cost for a courier in UK door-to-door EBay UK is not just the place to get pins. The conditions and experience vary, do research on the buyer- feedback, even contact the last two buyers of the seller and ask about descriptions especially if it was a pinball, ask for loads of pipicturesque tend to offer a deal outside eBay and then pay via paypal sometimes even gifting half the money but its better than western union and direct bank transfer.
 
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