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Buying from the EU (to UK) as an individual (i.e. not buying via VAT registered company) - a pre- and post- Brexit comparison

JT.

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There have been a few posts recently asking about the situation regarding importing games from the EU post-Brexit - whether it now costs more, questions about the tax situation, and questions about moving machines to other EU countries before moving them to the UK. I did a bit of investigating and updated one post, but it was a wanted ad, so not very visible, so thought I'd put what I found in a separate post. I investigated in relation to machines, and the example below relates to buying from The Netherlands, but the rules are the same across all EU countries, and countries with customs agreements with the EU (Norway and Switzerland). I expect the same applies to machine parts and peripherals, but didn't specifically look into that.

Import situation pre-Brexit

You place an EU export order with an EU vendor, as an example, with a Dutch vendor. You would pay local VAT (Dutch VAT is 21%) on the list price of the machine and on shipping. There would be no additional taxes to pay if that machine moved across EU borders - to the UK, then a part of the EU, or to any other EU country. From your perspective, this process would work exactly the same as if you had bought from a UK vendor - the only small difference is you would have paid the Dutch VAT rate @ 21%.


Import situation post-Brexit

You place a non-EU export order with an EU vendor, again, as an example, a Dutch vendor. The Dutch vendor should apply a zero percent rate for Dutch VAT, as this is now an export out of the EU (as confirmed here). The value on the invoice should be just the list price of the machine (no tax included) + shipping. The Dutch vendor arranges the export of the machine, completing their local export paperwork. The machine is shipped, and at the UK border becomes liable for UK import VAT (same rate as standard UK VAT - 20%). The shipping company will typically administer this process for you, so you'll either pre-pay it with the shipping company, or they will bill you. The machine will sit in port until the bill is paid by someone.

There is no import duty on pinball machines (there is now import duty on many other things, but pins are zero % rated).


Comparison of costs pre- and post- Brexit

Pre-Brexit, you would have paid list price + shipping, + Dutch VAT @ 21% on that total

Post-Brexit you will pay list price + shipping + a small fee to the shipping company to administer the payment of UK VAT at the border on your behalf (you can do it yourself, but I don't know how that would work, and it's almost certainly not worth the hassle), + UK VAT @ 20% on that total.

Overall, the difference in cost pre- and post- Brexit is immaterial, a few quid either way.


Other scenarios I've seen mentioned

I saw a post where someone was asking about buying a machine, picking it up themselves from the Dutch vendor, then moving it to France themselves, then trying to move it to the UK. In that scenario, the process and costs would be as follows:

Place a standard sales order with the Dutch vendor. The Dutch vendor would apply local Dutch VAT @ 21%. You collect the machine yourself, and transport it to France - there would be no tax implications in that move between the EU countries of the Netherlands and France. However, when eventually moving it to the UK, the total invoice value would be liable for UK import VAT @ 20% at the border - and that 20% would be applied on top of the total invoice value of list-price and Dutch VAT.

This post mentioned not declaring it at the UK border, which is obviously illegal (I don't know what the penalties might be, beyond being forced to pay UK import VAT) - but even if you did make it through without being caught, you would still have paid Dutch VAT on the purchase at 21%. Rather than doing it legally and correctly and incurring a 20% UK import VAT bill + admin fee.

Basically, there is no cost upside to this suggestion, but the massive potential downsides of having to pay both Dutch and UK VAT, and risking prosecution and any associated penalties.


Hope this is helpful. If anyone spots any errors let me know and I'll edit this post as needed, but after lots of online digging around, I'm pretty sure this is all correct.


UPDATE 1:

Orders of less than £135 in value, placed with online sellers ("B2C ecommerce orders")

For orders under £135 (mods, spare parts, etc), placed with online sellers, the VAT payment situation is slightly different to the above due to the 'UK B2C ecommerce and marketplace VAT reforms' (2021). In this specific situation, using the example of a Netherlands based vendor, the local Dutch VAT should be zero 0% rated on the invoice, then they should apply UK sales VAT at 20% on the invoice, then complete their local export documentation and (different to normal) customs paperwork, and ship to you. No additional VAT should be due at the UK border. The foreign vendor then takes responsibility for paying a VAT return to UK HMRC.

For large online vendors like Amazon this works fine, but for small vendors it is a lot of extra effort and administrative expense. In this situation, people on pinballinfo.com have reported this process working correctly with large vendors like Amazon and ebay, but not always working as legislated with small vendors- i.e. situations have included it sometimes working as legislated, sometimes being charged no VAT at all, and sometimes being charged VAT twice: by the vendor at point of sale, and at the UK border by customs.

More information here.

UPDATE 2:

The exception in Update 1 now applies to imports from any country (including those outside the EU) and regardless of how the sale was facilitated (sale via online marketplaces, and/or any other sales methods - like, phoning an order in, etc).

More information here.
 
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I thought the import vat is calculated on the sum of the goods value plus the shipping costs ?
Yes, it is. Pre-Brexit you would have paid local (Dutch in my example) VAT on the machine and shipping. Post-Brexit you will pay UK VAT on the machine and shipping. I'll change the order of those sentences so it's clear.
 
And to add - VAT rates across the EU are dictated within a range by the EU. In some countries it might be slightly less than our 20% rate, in some countries it might be slightly above. The average rate is 21%, but there are exceptions - e.g. one country at 27% (Hungary) and another at 17% (Malta). But the bigger Western European countries have rates that are close enough to ours (either way) to be inconsequential to my post above.
 
Interesting post but I know most pinball distributors in the eu can no longer be bothered shipping to the Uk
Also you have only done vat registered companies so if you where joe blogs buying from mr smith in France who is also not vat registered then it makes it really complicated
 
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Interesting post but I know most pinball distributors in the eu can no longer be bothered shipping to the Uk
Also you have only done vat registered companies so if you where joe blogs buying from mr smith in France who is also not vat registered then it makes it really complicated
I suspect that the reason they can't be bothered is the additional export paper work that I mentioned, Chris. Either that, or that they don't understand the new rules (it's actually not that hard for them, it's generally much worse exporting from the UK to the EU now) - it was really difficult for me to work out what the new rules are though, because of having to investigate UK rules, and EU rules. There's just not one place online that says how it is - which is a hopeless situation to be honest. But it's actually really easy for EU exporters.

The post above is just about individuals buying, rather than VAT registered companies, though. For UK VAT registered companies importing, it's different, but I guess they'll have tax advisors who can advise them. The above only applies to the average Joe Bloggs . If the EU based vendor isn't registered for VAT in their country (i.e. they can't reclaim their VAT in their country through a local tax return) they should still follow the same rules as above. Any export from an EU country to the UK (now a non-EU country), or Norway/Switzerland which have customs agreements with the EU, should be zero-rated for local VAT :)
 
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The problem I have seen people having is a German guy wanting to buy a Uk pin both not vat registered is that the shipping company is asking for a vat no
Vat registered business to businesses is dead easy you charge out without vat they pay the vat at there end before customers release it
 
I've recently bought from the EU (Italy) and was only possible by owning a UK VAT registered limited company.
Pinball was stuck in customs for 8 days while fees were calculated and paid to delivery company so I paid import duty and small additional handling fees too.
 
The problem I have seen people having is a German guy wanting to buy a Uk pin both not vat registered is that the shipping company is asking for a vat no
Vat registered business to businesses is dead easy you charge out without vat they pay the vat at there end before customers release it
I've not looked into exporting from the UK to an EU country to be honest. I know from my wife's job that in general that it’s much more difficult exporting from here to the EU than it was pre-Brexit - more paper-work being a problem, but also that the officials/shipping companies in the countries receiving the goods don't understand the new rules. I didn't look into business to business sales though so not sure about that.
 
I've recently bought from the EU (Italy) and was only possible by owning a UK VAT registered limited company.
Pinball was stuck in customs for 8 days while fees were calculated and paid to delivery company so I paid import duty and small additional handling fees too.
That doesn't align with anything I've read Dan - it suggests that imports of anything from the EU can only happen between VAT registered companies - which cannot be right. There's a lot of confusion, some EU sellers will not know what the rules are. Shipping companies too.

The stuck in customs bit sounds exactly right. My wife's job involves importing, and she's had things in a mixed container being held in port because someone else who had in an item in that container hadn't paid their VAT bill. You didn't pay import duty though, you paid UK import VAT and handling fees.
 
That doesn't align with anything I've read Dan - it suggests that imports of anything from the EU can only happen between VAT registered companies - which cannot be right. There's a lot of confusion, some EU sellers will not know what the rules are. Shipping companies too.

The stuck in customs bit sounds exactly right. My wife's job involves importing, and she's had things in a mixed container being held in port because someone else who had in an item in that container hadn't paid their VAT bill. You didn't pay import duty though, you paid UK import VAT and handling fees.
You're right, sorry - I should have explained that it was the only route the vendor would agree to rather than legally possible. I believe for ease, a lot of vendors are operating under those conditions as its, as previously stated by Chris, the easiest way for transactions to go through post-brexit.
 
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I didn’t have a Ltd company or vat number when I imported the glass!
 
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You're right, sorry - I should have explained that it was the only route the vendor would agree to rather than legally possible. I believe for ease, a lot of vendors are operating under those conditions as its, as previously stated by Chris, the easiest way for transactions to go through post-brexit.
No need for an apology, I knew this post would be challenged through people's differing lived experiences, and welcome that tbh - it gives real experiences that can be considered. The reason I investigated it was because it was so confusing, so being challenged helps make it clearer to others.

I think many EU vendors don't understand how it should work either, which I don't hold against them at all. If they understood, they'd just zero rate it for local VAT as an export out of the EU - there's no downside for them, it's just an accounting matter.

Anyway, if we don't understand it, why would they bother trying to... If they are coming up with their own rules though, at least people will know what the law is, and they can choose how they proceed - explain the law, walk away from a deal, etc. Better to know how it should work, in my mind anyway :)
 
The difficulty is if you are after something very specifc and are limited to a tiny pool of vendors who operate a certain way, you're kind of stuck.
Unless of course you the time to figure out post-brexit importation, which I haven't.

I just wanted the damn pin and was lucky to fit the criteria :) but the gist of my post is, is it's much easierif you're vat registered and have a business address.

I spoke to several companies via Shiply too and as soon as I mentioned duties and declaration forms they all said they would refer it to an agent that deals with all that :D
 
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I didn’t have a Ltd company or vat number when I imported the glass!
Yeah. My brother imported a CNC machine from Italy in January - also as a private buyer with no VAT registration. That transaction worked as I described above, with the shipping company/their agent billing him for UK import VAT and administering that payment process.

Even though it's a different issue to the one I was trying to explain, I get what people are saying though - that they have experienced EU vendors unwilling to transact with individual consumers in the UK, only with UK VAT registered companies. But there's no legal reason for this to be the case, and no advantage to them that I can see either (in fact, they are unnecessarily excluding themselves from a market by operating in that way) - it seems most likely that some vendors simply don't understand the new rules.
 
Yeah. My brother imported a CNC machine from Italy in January - also as a private buyer with no VAT registration. That transaction worked as I described above, with the shipping company/their agent billing him for UK import VAT and administering that payment process.

Even though it's a different issue to the one I was trying to explain, I get what people are saying though - that they have experienced EU vendors unwilling to transact with individual consumers in the UK, only with UK VAT registered companies. But there's no legal reason for this to be the case, and no advantage to them that I can see either (in fact, they are unnecessarily excluding themselves from a market by operating in that way) - it seems most likely that some vendors simply don't understand the new rules.

I think some of this is because the systems (from couriers) they are using don't allow them to do it.
 
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I think some of this is because the systems (from couriers) they are using don't allow them to do it.
That'd make a lot of sense tbh - maybe this particular issue will go away in time, as computer systems are updated to the new rules.
 
Hello,
I'm also considering the import of a pin to UK from Italy for various reasons which fall into a different forum.
To confirm and if I read it correctly, if I buy the machine from a person in Italy, then I can organise the shipping myself (I can store it at my friends or family) to my own UK address, and me, not being VAT registered, I can just pay the custom/duty tax (shipping as well) and get it without problems of proving to be a business?
Is that what you guys have experienced?
 
Hello,
I'm also considering the import of a pin to UK from Italy for various reasons which fall into a different forum.
To confirm and if I read it correctly, if I buy the machine from a person in Italy, then I can organise the shipping myself (I can store it at my friends or family) to my own UK address, and me, not being VAT registered, I can just pay the custom/duty tax (shipping as well) and get it without problems of proving to be a business?
Is that what you guys have experienced?
It should* be as follows:

  • Italian vendor zero % rates the pin for local Italian VAT and prepares you an 'export' invoice (I'm assuming you are purchasing from an Italian a company, rather than an individual).
  • Shipping/transportation is arranged, along with export documentation. In order to zero rate the order for local VAT, I'd imagine the vendor will need proof that it is actually leaving the EU. Which might mean arranging the shipping/transportation themselves - you'd need to discuss with them. I'd be surprised if they just took your word for it though, as otherwise anyone (even Italian residents) could just turn up and say they were exporting the machine, and easily evade local VAT.
  • UK VAT will be due at the UK border, calculated on the value of the pin + shipping.

There is no 'customs' or 'duty' on pins coming from the EU.

* The above is how it should work from a legal perspective, but as others have mentioned, they have had difficulty in getting shipping companies to deal with them as non-VAT-registered individuals, for various reasons but probably either ignorance of EU or UK post-Brexit laws, IT systems that do not reflect the current laws, or even that they now consider it too much hassle.
 
It should* be as follows:

  • Italian vendor zero % rates the pin for local Italian VAT and prepares you an 'export' invoice (I'm assuming you are purchasing from an Italian a company, rather than an individual).
  • Shipping/transportation is arranged, along with export documentation. In order to zero rate the order for local VAT, I'd imagine the vendor will need proof that it is actually leaving the EU. Which might mean arranging the shipping/transportation themselves - you'd need to discuss with them. I'd be surprised if they just took your word for it though, as otherwise anyone (even Italian residents) could just turn up and say they were exporting the machine, and easily evade local VAT.
  • UK VAT will be due at the UK border, calculated on the value of the pin + shipping.

There is no 'customs' or 'duty' on pins coming from the EU.

* The above is how it should work from a legal perspective, but as others have mentioned, they have had difficulty in getting shipping companies to deal with them as non-VAT-registered individuals, for various reasons but probably either ignorance of EU or UK post-Brexit laws, IT systems that do not reflect the current laws, or even that they now consider it too much hassle.
Don't forget you need to pay a 'handling' fee by the shipping courier to process your VAT payment. This varies on the courier.
 
It should* be as follows:

  • Italian vendor zero % rates the pin for local Italian VAT and prepares you an 'export' invoice (I'm assuming you are purchasing from an Italian a company, rather than an individual).
  • Shipping/transportation is arranged, along with export documentation. In order to zero rate the order for local VAT, I'd imagine the vendor will need proof that it is actually leaving the EU. Which might mean arranging the shipping/transportation themselves - you'd need to discuss with them. I'd be surprised if they just took your word for it though, as otherwise anyone (even Italian residents) could just turn up and say they were exporting the machine, and easily evade local VAT.
  • UK VAT will be due at the UK border, calculated on the value of the pin + shipping.

There is no 'customs' or 'duty' on pins coming from the EU.

* The above is how it should work from a legal perspective, but as others have mentioned, they have had difficulty in getting shipping companies to deal with them as non-VAT-registered individuals, for various reasons but probably either ignorance of EU or UK post-Brexit laws, IT systems that do not reflect the current laws, or even that they now consider it too much hassle.
Thank you for your reply and explaining, I understand now, for some reason I thought I'd be better off to ship it myself, but actually that way, I would end up paying the VAT at the time of purchase, then take it away, before the shipping (not good).
I found few dealers which seem legit (that remains to be verified of course by visiting them). It makes sense what you're saying about getting them to do the shipping and export paperwork. Ok, so it's all about hoping that the border control process the item the right way and I'd pay just the VAT and handling fees aside from the shipping. Like you say, some guys here have had different experience and had to pay other costs on top or deal with VAT register problems.

But, if I buy from a private person for a second hand item, then I would have to arrange the shipping through a shipping company, and when it arrives at the UK border, pay the same? VAT and handling fees?
 
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I actually thought of getting UK shipping companies to handle the shipping, that way maybe they understand how to prepare the paperwork better and do it right. I know shipping companies have to declare what's being transported and select which category the item falls under, if someone selects the wrong category (so the item doesn't fall under the custom duty free category), we would have to pay custom and duty, just because the wrong category was selected.
 
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I actually thought of getting UK shipping companies to handle the shipping, that way maybe they understand how to prepare the paperwork better and do it right. I know shipping companies have to declare what's being transported and select which category the item falls under, if someone selects the wrong category (so the item doesn't fall under the custom duty free category), we would have to pay custom and duty, just because the wrong category was selected.
Yeah, that makes sense - although any international shipping company should be doing that sort of administrative work every day and really be getting it right 100% of the time - if they screwed it up, I'd expect they would be liable for resolving the problem to the satisfaction of UK Customs, or cover any financial implications of their mistake.

From what others have said though, I think the problem you might face is finding a foreign pinball machine vendor & shipping company willing to deal with you (as a non-VAT registered company). Although I still find that situation very odd, as (from a legal export/import process perspective) it makes no difference to a foreign vendor whether you, as purchaser, are UK VAT registered or not.
 
Yeah, that makes sense - although any international shipping company should be doing that sort of administrative work every day and really be getting it right 100% of the time - if they screwed it up, I'd expect they would be liable for resolving the problem to the satisfaction of UK Customs, or cover any financial implications of their mistake.

From what others have said though, I think the problem you might face is finding a foreign pinball machine vendor & shipping company willing to deal with you (as a non-VAT registered company). Although I still find that situation very odd, as (from a legal export/import process perspective) it makes no difference to a foreign vendor whether you, as purchaser, are UK VAT registered or not.
Yes, I totally agree with you on your opinions.
I was reading earlier in the week about a member of this site, that he arranged a shipping of a pinball from Italy post-brexit and his pinball was stuck in customs. They wanted an EORI number (so I guess a VAT registered person and this special trading 'license') for applying the charges and releasing his pinball, otherwise it would have gone back. I can only think that someone didn't do the paperwork correctly (or maybe confusion when it got to the border).
It's a bit strange that vendors or shipping companies do not want to deal with non-VAT registered people like some of us.
I think the whole certainty and confusion makes traders or shipping companies afraid to have to deal with such situations and be blamed for having to deal with situations gone wrong.
Perhaps things have now settled and the process is clearer lately.
I have found some shipping companies willing to do it (I haven't agreed yet, need to find the pinball first).
Let's see how it goes if I manage to get hold of one.
 
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They wanted an EORI number (so I guess a VAT registered person and this special trading 'license') for applying the charges and releasing his pinball, otherwise it would have gone back. I can only think that someone didn't do the paperwork correctly (or maybe confusion when it got to the border).
That's another odd situation, because for an individual (not a company) that number is clearly not needed. Oh well, it seems the reality of this all can be quite shambolic! But I guess if you know what all the legal rules are and how it should work in theory, at least you can ask informed questions if things don't go smoothly.

As an aside, if you do find an international shipper who deals with all EU countries, and they do a good job (without asking for things that aren't legally required) it might be an idea to create a new post about them - as clearly several people further up this post have had problems/almost given up on importing.
 
That's another odd situation, because for an individual (not a company) that number is clearly not needed. Oh well, it seems the reality of this all can be quite shambolic! But I guess if you know what all the legal rules are and how it should work in theory, at least you can ask informed questions if things don't go smoothly.

As an aside, if you do find an international shipper who deals with all EU countries, and they do a good job (without asking for things that aren't legally required) it might be an idea to create a new post about them - as clearly several people further up this post have had problems/almost given up on importing.
I'll be more than happy to help with a new post, if I do manage to get hold on a pin, then ship it across without problems.
I'm in touch with a couple of dealers over in Italy and I'm planning to go and see them, hopefully legit.
Let's see how things go.
 
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But, if I buy from a private person for a second hand item, then I would have to arrange the shipping through a shipping company, and when it arrives at the UK border, pay the same? VAT and handling fees?
I missed this previously, but the answer is yes, your understanding is correct. UK customs might also want a receipt or other evidence of the machine's value for calculating the value of UK VAT - I'm really not sure exactly what they might want.
 
I missed this previously, but the answer is yes, your understanding is correct. UK customs might also want a receipt or other evidence of the machine's value for calculating the value of UK VAT - I'm really not sure exactly what they might want.
Ok, thank you.
Yes, that is a bit of a grey area. I would have to declare the value of the item at the time of shipping, so the shipping is covered by insurance and therefore customs bases their VAT on that. But I'm not sure they actually want to see some sort of evidence of a receipt (that will be a bit of a problem when buying from a private person).
I remember pre-brexit buying second hand stuff from US, and I paid charges on the declared value of the item, I would think it's the same process.
 
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A bit of discussion occurred in a for sale thread about possible exceptions for the above import tax rules. So adding this comment here for completeness of this post and so as not to disrupt that for sale post any further:

I don't have a donkey in this fight (or whatever the saying is!) but there are circumstances where VAT is not due on import. For example, when I moved to the UK from a non-EU country I brought in over £30k worth of stuff (which could have included pins), didn't pay a penny in taxes and that was perfectly legal.

Whilst this must be an incredibly rare scenario for pin movements (so rare as to not really be relevant tbh), I did check this example to see whether my original post needed updating with an exception. This scenario is a rabbit hole I don't intend going down, but after a very brief read, the rules suggest that importing goods when you immigrate to the UK is only vat free if you are planning to remain resident on a temporary basis, before re-exporting the goods back to their original country. For people planning to immigrate to the UK permanently, then VAT is due at 20%, but tax relief is offered which can cancel this out (amount of relief is dependent on a load of rules). But that relief is only valid if you intend to use the goods for the same reason they were used for prior to moving. So sticking a pinball machine in a container when you emigrate, in order to immediately sell it when you arrived, would not satisfy that rule and would comprise tax-evasion.

In summary, if you find yourself in the somewhat unlikely situation of living outside the UK and planning to move here in order to avoid paying import VAT on pins you are then going to sell in the UK, then you need to think again as this is not an exception to UK import tax law. Info here
 
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